Chuaigh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m.

__________

Paidir.

Prayer.

Official Engagements.

1. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting in Dublin with Prime Minister Goh of Singapore; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15754/00]

The Taoiseach: I met Prime Minister Goh of Singapore in Dublin Castle yesterday. His visit, the first to Ireland by a Prime Minister of Singapore, represents a deepening of our relations with Singapore, as it follows visits to Ireland by both of the Singaporean Deputy Prime Ministers during 1999 and the Tánaiste's visit to Singapore earlier this year.

The Prime Minister and I held discussions on the development of bilateral relations between our two countries. The Prime Minister welcomed the recent opening of the Irish Embassy in Singapore, as we look forward to the appointment by Singapore of an honorary consul in Dublin later this year. We also discussed the potential for the further development of trade between our countries. I briefed the Prime Minister on the development and the strengths of our economy and emphasised to him the attractiveness of Ireland as a location for inward investment by Singaporean companies seeking to access the European market.

We also discussed the potential for multilateral co-operation between Europe and Asia and Prime Minister Goh informed me of his hopes for the ASEM III Summit in Seoul which takes place in October. Singapore was one of the founders of the ASEM process and I was pleased to remind the Prime Minister that Ireland is hosting the fourth ASEM Young Leaders Symposium in Limerick next week. We were pleased to note that the EU-ASEAN dialogue is set to resume later this year and both look forward to the continuing development of this channel of communication and co-operation between our two regions. I also briefed the Prime Minister on my visit to East Timor earlier this year and we briefly discussed the upcoming UN Millennium Summit and the outlook for UN reform.

Mr. J. Bruton: Did the Taoiseach hold any discussions with Prime Minister Goh about the very large arms build-up in East Asia generally where several countries, not just China and Taiwan, are spending a very large amount of money on armaments and did he discuss the considerable instability which seems to exist in the Philippines, for example, as a result of which a number of tourists have been kidnapped by a secessionist group?

The Taoiseach: We discussed those issues although we did not discuss all of the countries involved. We discussed the China-Taiwan relationship and the difficulties experienced since the recent election of the president in Taiwan. Prime Minister Goh outlined his views on how he sees matters developing in this area.

We also discussed North Korea and South Korea and the Prime Minister seemed satisfied with progress in that area. He emphasised that these countries have finally started to engage in dialogue with other countries. Indonesia is the Prime Minister's particular concern and we spoke at some length about the uncertainty there. The Prime Minister outlined his best assessment of the situation which - without going into too much detail - was that Indonesia is still quite unsettled and that a very difficult period lies ahead there.

Mr. J. Bruton: Do the problems in Indonesia relate to secessionist moves in various parts of the country such as Aceh or do they relate to the relationship between the native Indonesian community and the very large ethnic Chinese community? Which is the more difficult issue from Prime Minister Goh's perspective?

The Taoiseach: Both of those issues pose difficulties but one really needs to talk to somebody dealing with the region; sometimes one forgets, in spite of what has happened in recent years, that Indonesia is a country with a population of 200 million people. The situation in the country has still not stabilised and while there is support for the President, a number of substantive groups are still vying for positions of strength and that is creating many difficulties. The Minister for Defence briefed me on his trip to East Timor where the situation has stabilised and where much progress has been made. Owing to the size of Indonesia's population - Singapore only has a population of 3.2 million which is not very substantial in relation to a number of other countries - when there is uncertainty and potential political unrest, it creates great instability for the region.

Mr. J. Bruton: In regard to ASEM, I had the honour of attending the first such summit. Does the Taoiseach believe that concrete practical results of a significant nature have arisen from this or has the focus mainly been on simply developing contacts and attending meetings at different levels, which can be made to sound very significant but which may have no great significance beyond the actual event itself?

The Taoiseach: Deputy Bruton was in Bangkok. That started off the process and then it moved to London. London was really taken up with the Asian financial crisis and did not get really anywhere further than that. Amazingly and miraculously the economies have restored and revived themselves and have now redeemed themselves. This time around there are some practical issues that can be discussed. They would centre around trade and trying to build up trade relationships, and building up memorandums of understanding of substance.

The concern of European countries would be to set up a trade relationship of a substantial nature and to see if they can get agreement on that. The concern of the ASEAN countries is that they are not just plagued with questions of human rights, where they believe they are doing their best but Europe believes that there is a lot more to be achieved. Around that there is great pressure.

Prime Minister Goh would be happy enough to deal with their development of human rights, although accepting that there is much work to do, but other ASEAN countries are not prepared to discuss these issues so openly and feel that Europe has just a one item agenda and that these meetings are not for that purpose.

The forum at ministerial level, which was set up as the Deputy will recall, ran into trouble over the Burma/Myanmar issue. I hope that will revive itself. The Foreign Minister who is travelling with the Prime Minister said he hoped to see that up and running later this summer. I have read independently that that might not be so clear but certainly that is the intention. It still has not got down to a fixed agenda but if it does, it will on one side see an improvement in the human rights situation and definitely try to deal with substantive trade issues.

The Taoiseach: I would, and that is why yesterday I got into discussion with Prime Minister Goh about his coming to prominence. He came to prominence in his country through a reform package from his predecessor, who - I think he would not disagree - at the time - I was there some years ago - was seen as hardline and dictatorial. There were not too many freedoms. That has changed substantially.

Many of the other countries' leaders - I suppose the Singapore Prime Minister would believe this also - believe that European countries demand too much of them. They do not disagree that the level of human rights should work its way and bring itself forward to European levels, but it will take time. Sometimes making too much an issue of criticism is not maybe the best way of bringing them forward. The case of what Europe considers is democratic, what is democratisation and what are proper standards of human rights should be put, but in some ways they must be helped and convinced of those moves over a period of time.

At least a number of the countries accept - this came up at the last ASEAN meeting - that they are a long way behind; they are 50 or 60 years behind in their own view. However, since they are wealthy countries, maybe some of the wealthiest countries in the world, it is fair enough to argue that they should be moving on these issues at a greater pace.

European Affairs.

2. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the number of times the Cabinet Committee on European Affairs has met to date in 2000; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15760/00]

The Taoiseach: The Cabinet Committee on European Affairs has met four times this year and will meet again next Wednesday.

Mr. J. Bruton: Is this committee overseeing the developments in the intergovernmental conference in preparation for the final adoption of the Treaty of Nice at the end of the year?

The Taoiseach: Yes.

Mr. J. Bruton: In the light of that, I ask the Taoiseach a number of questions about issues which are on the agenda for the-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Bruton, I draw your attention to the fact that this is a statistical question and that it is a long standing rule of the House that supplementary questions on policy issues are not raised on a statistical type question.

Mr. J. Bruton: I have also amended to the question a request to the Taoiseach to make a statement on the matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: According to Standing Orders, it is not appropriate to raise matters that were discussed by a committee which might impinge on matters specific or internal to Cabinet confidentiality.

Mr. J. Bruton: I will put the question in another way. Does the Taoiseach agree that it would be a good idea to increase the frequency of the meetings between now and the summit in Nice in light of the very serious issues that are arising where there is a risk, for example, that Ireland might lose its member of the Court of Justice? There is a risk that the reinforced co-operation ideas that are being put forward could leave smaller countries or some individual countries on one side rather than the European Union moving ahead as a unit. In particular, will the Taoiseach comment on the position with regard to the number of Commissioners in the European Union as a result of the likely outcome of the Nice summit? Do we need more meetings of this committee in order to deal with these issues?

The Taoiseach: The rule is that I cannot discuss the agenda of the committee because of Cabinet confidentiality. I assure Deputy Bruton that the issues of the intergovernmental conference are now taking up far more time than the monthly meeting of the committee. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and I, as well as officials, have been discussing it. Other members of the Government have been discussing it and the Government is being briefed on those meetings. Because of the level of activity on the intergovernmental conference a great deal of discussion is taking place. Those issues centre around the matters we discussed last week - the Amsterdam leftovers; maintaining our Commissioner, which is still not agreed; the issues within the intergovernmental conference on the weighting of votes and the flexibility issues. These are all issues on which we have set down our position. Within the committee which has been working on this since February - the IGC committee - we have set down our positions. I have done so publicly as well as here in the House.

The meeting in Feira will be an opportunity for us to sign off on our position regarding what is realistic to achieve in the second half of the year. We have taken a very straightforward view. We have said where we can move to and where we believe we should be moved to. I want to see the IGC completed by Nice and if anyone holds back on any positions that creates difficulties. We must wait to see how the French will handle the Presidency. I met the French Finance Minister, Minister Fabius, who is taking a key role in the IGC in France. A number of speeches have been made which I also discussed last week. There are roughly five central issues which will be on the agenda. We look forward to trying to make as much progress as we can in two weeks time in Feira.

Mr. Quinn: Arising from the Taoiseach's replies, has the Government revised or changed its view in relation to the prospect of publishing a Green Paper setting out very clearly the Irish Government's position on the issues that are currently being debated? I know the Taoiseach made a comprehensive speech to the Institute of European Affairs but in view of the necessity to have an informed public who will have to vote in a referendum arising from the Treaty of Nice, does the Government now think it would be advisable if not desirable to publish a Green Paper setting out the Irish Government's position, as an interim contribution to the debate both at home and in the wider European context, perhaps at the end of the Portuguese Presidency, in the first week or so of July?

The Taoiseach: I do not want to rule out that. No one has done so. Both the Minister for Foreign Affairs and myself have set out our negotiating position more than most countries and have almost brought it to a final state. Many other countries are sitting on the fence in terms of where they will go. I do not see much point in that because, if we are to complete it by Nice, we should be progressing with it. Later this evening I will discuss the issues at length with Antonio Guterres.

We need to get a clear line. The issues involve the Commission and the argument about whether it should be commissioners for the full group or whether there should be a first and second line similar to Ministers and Ministers of State. Another issue is qualified majority voting. We have moved our position on that, as we have on the weighting of votes. Another issue is flexibility, and if I could understand what everyone means by it-----

Mr. J. Bruton: What they want it for.

The Taoiseach: -----I would be happier. I have been trying hard to find that out, and they devised a new word over the weekend, although I cannot recall what it is.

Mr. J. Bruton: Reinforced co-operation.

The Taoiseach: Yes. What does that mean precisely?

Mr. Quinn: In the old days it used to mean the exclusion of small countries.

The Taoiseach: If a person said that to me directly, then I would know

my position.

Mr. J. Bruton: It also means excluding Great Britain.

The Taoiseach: I do not see the sense in one of the first decisions of the process of enlargement being that small groups of larger countries would dictate policy, with other member states on the outside from day one. That is not the way to go about creating constructive enlargement. I do not want to rule out what the Deputy said. I would be glad to do it and we could do it easily enough from where we are at.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A final supplementary from Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Barrett: Could the Taoiseach arrange for members of the Cabinet committee on European affairs to meet the Joint Committee on European Affairs, especially prior to COSAC meetings so the representatives who attend the COSAC meetings have a greater understanding of the Government's thinking on certain matters? We went to the trouble of ensuring that COSAC would be a recognised body under the treaties. Therefore, I am sure the Taoiseach would agree with me that it is essential that the Government keep in constant contact with the Joint Committee on European Affairs.

The Taoiseach: Yes, I accept that.

Mr. Barrett: Will the Taoiseach arrange for that?

The Taoiseach: Yes.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach agree the provisions for reinforced co-operation or flexibility already exist in the treaty and that the only difficulty from the point of view of some countries is that there must be unanimity to trigger them? Will he indicate if any of the advocates for the triggering of reinforced co-operation without unanimity have produced a single concrete example of something they want to do which they are not able to do at present because of the inoperability of the existing arrangements for reinforced co-operation?

The Taoiseach: No is the answer to that question. The case has been made for flexibility, now reinforced co-operation, for 12 months. I have my suspicions about what is the real agenda. It has not been put forward in any statements by the main players or the people behind this move. It will be put forward in the next Presidency, but it has not yet been put forward. The case seems to be made on the basis that, because enlargement will be so substantial, with a total of 27 or 28 countries, the pace of movement will be too slow in certain areas and that the only way for people to keep the system up and running is to allow groups make individual decisions. That is fraught with danger. That should be an issue that is thought out as part of the enlargement process. Already one could argue that the Euro-11 Group creates its own difficulties without going into the euro argument. It would be far better if everybody was in on that and I hope that will be the case as the year goes on. There might be some other agendas and perhaps at Feira the real agenda will be pushed out.

Agreements with Independent Deputies.

3. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the nature of the understanding between the Government and Deputy Gildea; the written agreement, if any, which exists between the two parties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15755/00]

4. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the nature of the understanding between the Government and Deputy Foley; the written agreement, if any, which exists between the two parties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15756/00]

5. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the nature of the understanding between the Government and Deputy Fox; the written agreement, if any, which exists between the two parties; and if he will make statement on the matter. [15757/00]

6. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the nature of the understanding between the Government and Deputy Healy-Rae; the written agreement, if any, which exists between the two parties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15758/00]

7. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the nature of the understanding between the Government and Deputy Blaney; the written agreement, if any, which exists between the two parties; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15759/00]

The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 7, inclusive, together. I have explained in some detail on a number of occasions to the House the nature of the understanding between myself and the Independent Deputies who support the Government. I have also pointed out that there is no written agreement between the Government and these Deputies. I have indicated on a number of occasions, that there is no great secret that the Deputies concerned have indicated to me what their priorities are and that I in turn have made it known to the House that it is my intention to deal with these issues over the life of the Government, many of which are reflected in the Programme for Government in any event.

The Deputies have informed this House what these priorities are in some instances and in others, they have found other ways of publishing them. The Government has substantially increased expenditure on a whole range of capital programmes and the national development plan has further increased expenditure on these programmes. This will allow Government to accelerate these programmes and complete them earlier than planned.

The House has discussed the national development plan and the priority that this Government has given to roads, water and sewage treatment, education, tourism and rural development within it. Many of the priorities indicated by the Deputies are already priorities for their respective local authorities and some are reflected in the review of the programme for Government and in the national development plan.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach anticipate any increase in the number of Deputies to whom these special arrangements might apply?

The Taoiseach: If any of the members of the Deputy's party want to join up with us, I am always willing to talk to them.

Departmental Report.

8. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the number of copies of the report distributed by his Department, Irish Business in the Information Society - 1999, Research into General Public Attitudes Towards Information and Communications Technology; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15761/00]

The Taoiseach: In 1999 the Information Society Commission engaged MRBI to carry out two research surveys on attitudes towards and usage of information and communications technology, one covering the general public and one on the business community.

The main findings from these survey results have been published in a series of seven thematic papers, three on the general public and four on the business community. For both surveys the first papers published covered the topline results. The topline results for the general public were published in October 1999 and for the business community in December 1999.

Subsequent papers dealt with specific areas of interest. In February, findings on early and late adopters of new technology were published, followed in March by the results of research on people's attitudes and expectations. For the business community, findings relating to electronic working, or teleworking, were published in April. In May, two papers were published, one dealing with Internet access and usage within Irish businesses and one addressing skills and training.

As regards dissemination of the results, given the nature of the Information Society Commission's business, electronic media have been used to the greatest extent possible. Electronic versions of the research papers were posted to the website of the Information Society Commission and can be viewed or downloaded from that site.

In addition, these survey results were the subject of a communications campaign which involved issuing press releases outlining the main results of the surveys, which has resulted in considerable and on-going media coverage and detailing the survey results in the Information Society Commission's monthly electronic newsletter which is e-mailed to approximately 2,500 recipients.

I am sure Deputies will agree that it makes sense to use electronic means of communication as much as possible in this area. At the same time, it is recognised that paper copies are also needed. The commission produces a stock of each brochure and approximately 800 paper copies were distributed by post to relevant individuals, including Deputies and Senators. In addition, hard copies of the research papers are made available at appropriate events, seminars and conferences countrywide.

Given the number of different channels used, it is difficult to estimate the number of individuals who have been in receipt of these survey results. However, there is no doubting the importance of this research in providing reliable indicators of Ireland's development as an information society and in guiding the Information Society Commission and others in the development of policy in this area.

The nature of the information society is such that it touches on many areas of policy and information such as that revealed by the surveys and is very useful to the relevant Ministers and Departments with responsibility for the various areas.

Mr. J. Bruton: Is it not the case that while generally, findings have been favourable, one area where the findings have not been so favourable is the use of websites by Irish businesses to sell their goods and services world-wide and that Irish businesses have been slowing in designing and developing their own websites for that purpose? E-commerce, in a certain way, may be being efficiently used by Irish businesses for buying things but not so efficiently used for selling things.

The Taoiseach: That is true. The use of websites for on-line sales is relatively low according to the surveys. While the business community is concerned about IT skills shortages, it is not investing adequately in training itself and that is shown up in the survey. It is not investing in its own staff and small and medium sized enterprises have been shown to be at greater risk of being left behind in the e-economy.

It is not an unfair criticism to say, following these results, the papers which went out to them and the opportunity to say this at a number of the seminars held in different parts of the country by IBEC, the small business industry and the Chambers of Commerce during the winter months, that if industry is crying out because of a lack skills and given that times are not bad for businesses, which could spend some of their own resources and profits in training, they could overcome many of the difficulties because it is in their interests to do so, as highlighted by these surveys.

Deputy Bruton is right in that websites for on-line sales are low. I do not accept the answer that it is because they cannot get skills. They should be trying to train staff themselves.

Mr. J. Bruton: Is it not the case that one does not need in-house staff to put up a website and that one simply needs to bring in an outside consultant to advise on what needs to go on to the website and what the site needs to do? One's own staff would be able to operate it thereafter as long as they have access to a server. Why are Irish firms apparently quite slow? Is there a degree of complacency here that the economy is so dynamic they do not need to invest in long-term capacity, such as equipping themselves with a good website?

On the other hand, from a Government point of view, using websites for procurement is something in which we are actively engaged. I do not want to be critical of the private sector and say that we have overcome this; we have not. This year the Government is putting much resources and effort into procurement policies for local authorities and elsewhere and we have to get that right. For businesses, it is well worth doing this and that is what these papers say very clearly to the business community.

Departmental Appointments.

9. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the bodies, if any, to which he has made appointments in 2000; the remuneration for the individuals involved; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15763/00]

The Taoiseach: A number of appointments have been made this year to bodies under the aegis of my Department. I have appointed, in agreement with the Tánaiste and Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, the following people to the Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Board - Mr. John Mulcahy, Mr. Paddy Teahon, Mr. Michael Walsh, Mr. John Treacy, Mr. John Power, Mr. Liam O'Maolmhichíl, Mr. Tom Kiernan, Mr. Sean Donnelly, Mr. William Attley, Ms Mary Davis and Ms Lucy Gaffney. The matter of remuneration is still under consideration.

On my nomination, the Government appointed Mr. Justice Declan Budd, Judge of the High Court, as President of the Law Reform Commission for a five year period. Mr. Budd will continue to receive his judicial salary while in this position. Also appointed by the Government on my nomination was Mr. Michael Kelly, Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children as a Local Appointments Commissioner. Mr. Kelly receives no additional remuneration for holding this post.

Mr. Allen: Has the board reassessed the original cost of £280 million given the recent disclosures in the House that the cost of relocating the State laboratories, the farm and-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Allen, we are moving well away from the substance of the question.

Mr. Allen: Has the committee assessed the up to date cost of the project?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That was not included in the question and I am anxious, because the next two questions are to be taken together, that we do not run out of time.

Mr. Allen: I will delay my question until the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation takes his questions.

Mr. J. Bruton: What reporting arrangement is there between the Taoiseach's Department and these appointees in regard to progress on Campus Ireland and, in particular, in regard to any overruns that might arise on the originally estimated cost?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Again, Deputy Bruton, we are moving away from the substance of the question.

Mr. J. Bruton: I am asking about reporting arrangements between the Taoiseach -----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will allow a question on reporting arrangements generally.

The Taoiseach: The board held its first meeting some weeks ago and it reported to me and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation. I raised this issue with it and it was discussed at the Estimates meeting. While the board was extremely appreciative of the support for the development from all sides of the House it asked that there should be a reporting mechanism back to a committee of the House and the board agreed that it would report four times a year to such a committee. Those arrangements are under discussion.

Mr. Allen: Has each member of the group made a declaration of interest?

The Taoiseach: I do not know if they have yet, but I will ask.

Northern Ireland Issues.

10. Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach to make a statement on his meeting on 31 May 2000 with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Peter Mandelson. [15893/00]

11. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting in Dublin on 31 May 2000 with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Mandelson; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15931/00]

The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 11 together. I met the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Peter Mandelson, on Wednesday last, 31 May. We reviewed the recent positive developments in Northern Ireland and looked forward to all the institutions, including the Executive and North-South Bodies, returning to full operational effectiveness. At the meeting, I also emphasised the Government's commitment to the full implementation of the Patten report recommendations and I referred to the concerns expressed by nationalist parties on the Police Bill.

As I stated in the House previously, I believe that the opportunity is there, within the legislative process, to resolve the issues satisfactorily. It is vital that we do so in order to achieve the overriding objective which must be to have a police service which is representative of both communities and is accepted across all of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Quinn: I have two questions. Is the Taoiseach satisfied in light of recent developments at Westminster and the announcement regarding the amendments that the Secretary of State proposes to table on Committee Stage of the Police Bill that he will be able to recommend to young Nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland that they should join the new police force if those amendments are accepted?

My second question is one to which I return and with which the Taoiseach is familiar. Did he discuss with the Secretary of State the issue of a parliamentary tier under the Council of the Isles and whether such a tier would subsume the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body?

The Taoiseach: I will reply to the latter question first. I followed up on our exchanges in the House and spoke to the joint chairman of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body and asked him to communicate with his counterpart. I hope that we can try to have a proposal. The management group will meet prior to the summer break but a full plenary session will not be held until the autumn. I restated my views, which the Deputy shares. I have stated perhaps to get over the sovereign Parliament issue, which is the only issue, that the management group could still be the sovereign Parliament and that the plenary groups would be all other Parliaments.

With regard to the Deputy's first question, the Government's position on the Patten report has been clear from the beginning. We welcome the report and its recommendations and all our effort has been focused on ensuring the full and faithful implementation of the report. While I welcome the proposed changes to the Bill signalled by the Secretary of State yesterday, there is still much work to be done. This has been pointed out strongly to me, particularly by the SDLP. Our objective must be to have a police service which is representative of both communities and accepted throughout Northern Ireland. This means that the new police service must be capable of attracting the support of both communities, including young Nationalists and republicans. The SDLP and Sinn Féin have made it clear that further changes are required. We strongly support that view.

I will have an opportunity to review all aspects of the Northern Ireland situation, particularly the police Bill, when I meet the Prime Minister Mr. Blair tonight in London. Our discussion will be primarily on that issue. As on decommissioning, there is a strong level of feeling about this issue among political movements, church groups, educational and cultural groups. We must get a handle on it to ensure that we do not allow it sour very positive developments. I will try to do that today.

Mr. Quinn: Does the Taoiseach accept that the concessions which the SDLP appear to have won are very positive? Does he also accept that the fact that the SDLP MPs voted on Second Stage for the Bill at Westminster is a positive indication that they believe this is the way forward and that a reformed police force is a possibility?

The Taoiseach: We must get this right, no matter what it takes in terms of time and effort. It is no harm for everybody to be reminded that the Patten commission was established because there was no possibility of achieving agreement during the negotiations on the Good Friday Agreement. It was agreed that the British Government would establish a commission and that its members would be discussed with the Government. We were lucky to get international and local senior figures involved who were prepared to give their time and commitment to this. They did that through an enormously extensive process.

Without exaggerating, many of those involved in the Patten commission feel their good work is being rowed back. It is very important we clear up the misunderstanding, whether factual or not. We should do it in a cool way, because for people to be involved in upping the ante one way or the other will not resolve the problem.

I understand Seámus Mallon's strongly held views on this issue. In fairness to him, he has warned about this from day one. His life's work has been in this area and he believes that policing is fundamental to the success of the Good Friday Agreement.

We must get it right. I agree that last night's developments at Westminster were positive. We must listen to those who were involved in the commission. The fundamental issue, which has been put to me by everybody, even over the past week, concerns the line between the policing boards - this is the central issue that, if resolved, would solve most of the other issues - the NIO, the security section and inquiries, investigations etc. It must be transparent. If it is not then, because of the history - I do not want to criticise anything the RUC does - it will not work. We must get that issue right. I have a job to do tonight to emphasise that people are not merely expressing concern on this but are adamant that the police board must be independent of the Secretary of State and the NIO. Otherwise it will not be trusted by all of the Nationalist community. That is the central issue.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach see any risk that the parliamentary timetable for dealing with the police Bill will carry it forward into the marching season and that there could be an unhelpful conjunction of emotions around policing and the marching issue operating together to create more difficulty than might otherwise occur?

The Taoiseach: Committee Stage of the Bill will take a long time. The central issues are, getting the Patten recommendations on the policing boards and the district policing boards included on an open and equal basis and getting clarification on the planning power of the boards and the ombudsman. While Deputies Bruton and Quinn ask questions and are familiar with this area, perhaps people in the South do not clearly understand what it means. However, the issue of transparency is deeply held by everybody in the North. It will continue to be a festering sore if there is not clarity on the matter.

I will say tonight that this has not been an issue for Unionists or loyalists since the Patten report was published last September. Therefore, why are we rowing back on fundamental aspects now? Other issues such as flags, emblems and the title arose, but this matter is fundamental to the structure. I want to do as Deputy Quinn asked. I want to be able to say that young Nationalists and republicans should join. I want to hear the SDLP and Sinn Féin say that also.

Mr. Quinn: Sinn Féin will not say it in respect of the Garda Síochána so it will not say it in respect of the North.

Mr. J. Bruton: Is it not the case that the objections to the arrangements are coming, not so much from the Unionist community, but from the policing community? Its argument may be that some of the arrangements create difficulty for the type of professional police work it would want to do but for which it feels it could not account as well as it should on an ongoing basis regarding continuing operations. Is this the problem that is emerging or is it another problem?

The Taoiseach: That is part of it, but the problem which must be resolved is that the Patten report stated that the membership of the police boards and the district police partnerships should be open to all on an equal basis, that there should be clear lines of demarcation between the NIO, the Secretary of State and the Security Minister, that investigations, examinations or reports should be clear and the police board should have power.

If the independence, functions and powers of the police board are pulled out, the collective view of everybody on the Nationalist side - I have spoken to all the key players, political, religious and others - is that it will not work. I will not convince them that it will work because they have long experience of it not working over six or seven decades. The Patten report was clear on this point. It emphasised this and people signed up to it on that basis. Therefore, there must be clear lines of demarcation with regard to the local policing boards. Otherwise, and this would be the unhelpful end which we do not wish to consider, the Nationalist community will not participate. If Nationalist groups do not participate, the boards cannot operate effectively. We must return to the starting point on this issue. I do not hold that view with regard to all 44 or, as some say, 70 issues. However, this matter is fundamental and we must stick absolutely to the Patten report.

Mr. J. Bruton: I agree with the Taoiseach regarding the need to ensure there is transparency in these arrangements. Perhaps it would be helpful, in persuading those who are reluctant to accept these arrangements and who consider them politically motivated rather than motivated by the best interests of effective policing, if this jurisdiction were to consider the implications of introducing similar transparency with regard to the operations of the Garda Síochána. It is difficult for us to say that things should be done with regard to transparency of policing in one part of the island if we are unwilling or unable to do them here given that we do not even have a police authority.

Mr. Quinn: Does the Taoiseach agree in light of a recent "Prime Time" programme that the 1986 legislation in this State with regard to the appeals procedure for citizens in relation to the Garda Síochána needs to be revamped? As Deputy Bruton indicated, does the Taoiseach agree it would be a way of reassuring those in Northern Ireland who feel the professional levels of policing might be in some way undermined if that fear was to be contradicted by bringing forward the level of transparency and accountability outlined in the Patten report?

While I will try to resolve some of these issues tonight, the Secretary of State also published the implementation plan yesterday. It sets out how each of the Patten recommendations will be implemented. I have already said to the parties in the North today that it should be read and assessed in conjunction with the police Bill. It deals with the legislative changes required.

PRIORITY QUESTIONS.

National Stadium.

16. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he will identify the people working on the national stadium project; the salaries and conditions of employment of these people; if these jobs were advertised publicly; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15984/00]

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid): Deputies will be aware that following the Government's decision last January to proceed with the development of Campus and Stadium Ireland, a development company under the chairmanship of the former Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, Paddy Teahon, was established.

I am advised that the people currently working on the project are the chairman of the development company, assisted by an official from the Department of the Taoiseach who has undertaken this task in addition to his normal duties. The Office of Public Works is providing the project management function for the infrastructure of the campus and stadium and a dedicated unit has been established in the office for that purpose.

I understand the development company has advertised for a team to provide executive services, including oversight, business organisation, financial control, communications and public relations in connection with the development. A fee for these services is being negotiated with the successful team.

Mr. Allen: What fee was agreed with the group? Last week I tabled a series of parliamentary questions about the national stadium at Abbottstown, but trying to get information is like getting blood from a turnip. Does the Minister agree that the project will cost almost £500 million rather than £280 million, given the cost of relocating the farm, State laboratories and the Marine Institute at Abbottstown and of developing the infrastructure which will be required? In view of the growing perception that this project is being pushed by a golden circle which has an alternative agenda to that of the sporting federation and that it will be a costly white elephant which the taxpayer will have to fund, does he agree that there should be a moratorium on it so that a Dáil committee can investigate the costs involved? Will he comment on the vicious silent campaign by the Government and its agencies to undermine the Eircom Park project in west Dublin?

Dr. McDaid: A comprehensive feasibility study was carried out on the stadium and its cost is estimated at £281 million, although that does not include the aquatic centre which we are trying to facilitate for the 2003 Special Olympics. I estimate that will cost a further £20 million which will bring the total to £300 million. There may be ongoing costs associated with it but the relocation of the other services is a matter for the Department of Finance. The Deputy estimates that it will cost £500 million. I estimate that would be cheap for a national stadium.

Mr. Allen: The Minister agrees it will cost £500 million.

Dr. McDaid: I do not. A comprehensive feasibility study estimated it would cost £281 million.

There has not been a vicious campaign by any section of the Government to undermine the development of Eircom Park. Both the Taoiseach and I had many meetings with the FAI during this process and we supported its proposals. The Government will continue to support any proposals from the FAI.

Mr. Allen: Does the Minister agree that the Department of Finance estimated that it would cost a minimum of £90 million to relocate one of the facilities? If we add that to £280 million and the £20 million the Minister mentioned, which is a conservative estimate for the 50 metre pool, the total is more than £400 million and we have not set one stone upon another. Will he consider a moratorium on this project until a Dáil committee with powers can investigate the implications of this infrastructural development which will cost the taxpayer a minimum of £500 million?

Dr. McDaid: There is not a requirement for any further quango to investigate the cost of the stadium. A comprehensive feasibility study has been carried out. The Government is also involved in decentralisation and it is estimated that up to 10,000 people may be required to relocate, which will cost money. Any further requests about the estimated cost of decentralising any section is a matter for the Department of Finance.

Mr. Allen: In view of the need for full information on this issue, will the Minister examine the reasons the Snow report, which was commissioned last October and used to try to block the Eircom development, has not yet been published?

Dr. McDaid: I will deal with that issue in Question No. 17.

Eircom Park.

17. Mr. O'Shea asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if any policy position in relation to the development of Eircom Park has been communicated by him or his Department to South Dublin County Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15899/00]

Dr. McDaid: Neither I nor my Department has communicated any policy position to South Dublin County Council in relation to the proposed development of Eircom Park.

Mr. O'Shea: Has the Department a policy position on Eircom Park or is it developing one? Is it intended to communicate that policy to South Dublin County Council and, if so, what is the proposed time scale?

Dr. McDaid: The answer to all the questions is 'no'. Planning is a matter for South Dublin County Council. The FAI has applied to South Dublin County Council for planning permission in the normal way.

Mr. O'Shea: As regards the position of the Minister's colleagues, particularly the Minister for Defence, will any policy position impinge on the planning permission for Eircom Park or its future development?

Dr. McDaid: It is well known that the Department of Defence has objected on the basis of the Snow report. There are two reports. The Snow report is responsible for the future development of Baldonnel Airport and the Department of Defence has commissioned an internal Air Corps report. Through the Air Corps, the Department of Defence also commissioned a report. Both reports would have an impact on the Eircom Park proposal.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister publish the reports?

Dr. McDaid: The Department of Defence and the FAI are meeting today to discuss those proposals.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister publish them?

Dr. McDaid: Yes, those reports will be published.

Mr. Allen: When?

Dr. McDaid: As soon as possible.

Mr. O'Shea: Bearing in mind that the FAI submitted all the additional information requested by South Dublin County Council two weeks ago, which means that a decision should be reached on the proposal in six weeks time, can the Minister guarantee that the Department of Defence will clearly state its position on Eircom Park? An objection has been lodged but it has not been clarified and the indications are that it will not be clarified until the autumn. Can the Minister guarantee that the Department of Defence will clarify its position and communicate it to South Dublin County Council within the time allowed?

Dr. McDaid: The Department of Defence and the FAI are meeting today to discuss those matters and I am sure further progress will be made at that meeting. The Department of Defence has some objections, mostly from the Air Corps, and has relayed the objections to the FAI. They concern the future development of Baldonnel Airport and Casement Aerodrome. Those matters will be discussed but the Government has not brought forward any impediments other than very relevant Department of Defence concerns about the matter.

Mr. O'Shea: It is difficult to accept the Minister's last statement. The Department of Defence has lodged an objection and that objection has not yet been clarified. Is the Department of Defence entering today's discussions to assist in the processing of the planning application and to be as positive as possible about the construction of Eircom Park?

Mr. Allen: While using a report which was suppressed.

Dr. McDaid: The Department of Defence is making every effort, in conjunction with the FAI, to bring forward its proposals and to overcome the objections it has to the proposal. Most of these questions, however, would be better asked of the Minister for Defence.

Mr. Allen: He will not answer such questions. He will not even respond to requests under the Freedom of Information Act.

Tourism Employment.

18. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation his views on whether the labour shortage within the tourism industry is hindering development and quality of service; if his attention has been drawn to the fact of the diminishing pool of potential employees among the long-term unemployed; and the plans he has to promote work permits to non-EU nationals within the tourism industry. [16106/00]

Dr. McDaid: I am aware that the tourism industry, with a number of other sectors, is at present facing difficulties in recruiting staff due to the general tightening in the labour market. I am particularly conscious that sustained labour shortages and high turnover of staff, unless addressed by the industry, could adversely affect the development of the sector and quality of service on offer. In 60% of hotels and 80% of restaurants there is no training programme in place. It is estimated that if the number of non-Irish employees increased to 25%, especially in the front of house area, from the current level of 10%, the céad míle fáilte could be at risk.

In reply to a similar question from the Deputy last April, I referred to a report which was published by CERT last year, entitled "Hospitality 2000", which quantified the expected skills requirements facing the industry up to the year 2005. This report highlighted the two major challenges facing the industry - the recruitment of new entrants and the retention and development of existing staff.

CERT is continuing to work with industry partners to address the challenges set out in the report. Implementation of the recommendations will require the industry to commit additional resources to develop and retain valuable staff and to find ways to achieve excellence and improve productivity with the same or fewer staff.

CERT is also continuing to develop new programmes to encourage people into the industry. Innovative pilot programmes have been launched targeting women wishing to return to paid employment and the long-term unemployed. Each programme has been designed to meet the particular needs of the participants.

Additional Information.

In the case of women interested in returning to paid employment, the programme is operated on a part-time basis to tie in with family responsibilities and it is envisaged that local hotels and restaurants will also offer flexible hours in a bid to attract such potential workers. I understand from CERT that the pilot programme initiated last year has been very successful and, as a result, it is being expanded throughout this year. CERT expects that up to 500 women will receive training in 15 centres throughout the country.

Programmes for the long-term unemployed have been established by CERT in Ballymun, Clondalkin and Merchant's Quay - traditional unemployment black spots - in an effort to make it as easy as possible for people to avail of training and to enter the tourism industry subsequently. All of the projects have been developed in conjunction with local employers and area partnerships and it is expected that all participants will have job offers on completion of training. Over 50% of participants on these special programmes for the long-term unemployed are women. Feasibility studies are being conducted by CERT for the possible establishment of similar programmes in Sligo, Galway and Waterford.

CERT has also increased its efforts to recruit people for its traditional courses for the unemployed but accept that potential recruitment in this category is showing signs of decline due to the tightening labour market. To promote careers in the industry among this group, CERT launched a travelling "roadshow" specifically aimed at adults. An information unit, advertised through local radio and newspapers, visited 15 towns in November and December last year, promoting information on elementary courses and conducting walk-in interviews. It is planned to repeat this exercise during this year.

Under the new national development plan, my Department will continue to work closely with CERT to refine its activities in the future and to further develop the measures to be taken to help address the requirements of the industry in an increasingly competitive labour market.

In a separate effort to boost recruitment levels, tourism employers have participated in recruitment fairs in Wales and Scotland which have proved very successful in attracting staff to Ireland. They are due to participate further in focused recruitment in England, France, Spain, Sweden, Finland and Greece. Irish participation in such fairs is co-ordinated by FÁS, which welcomes employer participation. The Irish Hotels Federation, Irish hotel groups and individual hotels are also participating in EURES, the European employment service, to help satisfy labour supply in the hospitality sector.

While I have no specific plans to arrange for the promotion of work permits for non-EU nationals, a number of private sector recruitment agencies are actively engaged in recruiting workers from overseas for employment in the hospitality industry.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, has indicated that her Department is prepared to issue work permits for the employment of non-European Economic Area nationals by Irish employers in the tourism industry where the employers can demonstrate that they have made every reasonable effort to recruit Irish or other EEA nationals for the positions concerned without success. There are also, of course, immigration and labour law requirements to be met in such cases.

Dr. McDaid: CERT has facilitated and encouraged the entire industry to conduct its own training. I mentioned that 60% of hotels and 80% of restaurants have no training programme. The State, through CERT, will continue to do all it can in the training area but the industry must also conduct its own training because the economy is doing well and more people are coming here. The two most important words in this area are recruitment and retention and the industry must realise that.

There are problems but they are not confined to this sector. We are aware of them and will monitor them but the industry itself must realise the necessity of training.

Mr. Perry: Will the Minister give an incentive to employers? They cannot deal with the training element at present because they are under such pressure. Does the Minister agree that CERT, while it has done an outstanding job, is unable to grow at the same rate as the industry, which has accelerated at an unprecedented rate, with 45 hotels opening in the last 18 months?

Dr. McDaid: In recent years CERT has focused on the labour problem but the industry must also get on top of the labour shortage problem. A number of initiatives have been put in place by the State to incentivise the area so more people will enter the tourism and hospitality industry. These initiatives included the national tourism careers roadshow, school talks, exhibitions, guidance counselling, information brochures, application forms, advertising in national newspapers and on radio and television, courses for the unemployed and return to work programmes. There was a £1 million area based response scheme for the long-term unemployed. Those are all incentives to get people back into the workforce and to enter the tourism industry. It is not up to the State to offer any more incentives. If tourism is to continue growing at such a rate, the industry will have to put more into it.

Mr. Perry: Does the Minister agree that the CERT element of training is confined to certain proprietors within the industry and that the new, emerging market cannot avail of CERT services because, in some areas, it is a closed club?

Dr. McDaid: The last incentive set out to attract people, particularly women who had reared their children or who had previously worked in the voluntary sector, back into the workforce We opened 15 areas throughout the State, researched the needs of the industry in those areas and trained people in accordance with those needs. Those areas may not be fully aware of that work yet but the schemes are in operation and have been very successful in bringing people back into work.

National Development Plan.

19. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if, in regard to the £400 million allocated under the national development plan, under the sub-programmes, he will say the amount that has been drawn down so far; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15912/00]

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Mr. E. Ryan): The National Development Plan, 2000-2006, which was published in November 1999, contains a provision of £420 million over the next seven years for local development initiatives under the social inclusion sub-programme of the two regional operational programmes, targeted at disadvantaged communities, drugs and young people at risk. The implementation arrangements have still to be finalised in agreement with the European Commission.

In the meantime, however, £1 million has already been drawn down by my Department to facilitate the smooth transition from the Operational Programme for Local, Urban and Rural Development to the new regional Operational Programmes, as outlined in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness.

Mr. O'Shea: The Minister of State's reply is basically the same as that which was given in respect of a similar question on 18 April. What progress has been made in respect of the allocation of this considerable sum of money which is to be spent on the important matter of social inclusion? The concept of social inclusion is becoming increasingly more important, particularly given that many people are becoming marginalised and socially excluded. Is the Minister of State in a position to guarantee the House that every possible effort is being made to move this programme forward so that a presentation can be made to and approved by the European Union? Will he indicate if moneys can be disbursed pending approval from the EU?

Mr. E. Ryan: The Operational Programme has already been submitted to the EU Commission by Ireland, but we have not yet obtained clearance in respect of it. However, as the programme was lodged at the appropriate time, all expenditure incurred this year will be eligible for support. The Department of Finance has advised us that it anticipates that approval will be issued by the EU Commission by the end of September or early October.

An allocation of £4 million was originally made but we have only drawn down £3 million. As already stated, these moneys can be used up if necessary. I met representatives of a number of the partnerships last week and asked them to submit their programmes by the end of July. Matters will then be brought to a conclusion in late September or early October. We do not foresee any difficulties in respect of funding but if such difficulties arise we will be in a position, if necessary, to deal with them.

Mr. O'Shea: Do the detailed programmes require approval from the EU or is such approval required for the overall elements of the national development plan? The Minister of State indicated that moneys could be drawn down and used in the current year. Will those moneys be substantial in nature? Will any worthwhile progress be made in the current year?

Mr. E. Ryan: Approval is required for the operational programmes. We have asked the partnerships to try to submit their detailed plans by the end of July, at which point we can proceed with the programmes. However, it will be September or October before those plans are assessed. At that stage, we will have obtained a decision from Europe and everything should fall into place. The representatives of the partnerships with whom I have been in contact believe that matters are proceeding in the correct manner. However, I agree with the Deputy that we must ensure there is no delay in allocating funding to these important programmes in order to allow them to commence.

Mr. Allen: In view of the uncertainty surrounding a number of programmes and that youth services and sport are the greatest preventative elements in the fight against crime and drugs abuse, will the Minister of State indicate the current status of the proposed development of youth services under the partnerships? Has he given the partnerships any indication that, in tandem with the Department of Education and Science's youth service programme, they will be able to develop youth services in the deprived areas which have been designated? Is he aware that a number of partnerships have not been able to proceed with certain projects?

Mr. E. Ryan: Youth services will develop innovative approaches to providing support for those who have left school early, who are at risk of early school leaving or who are involved in or at risk of becoming involved in drugs misuse. The aim is to assist young people to achieve educational qualifications and develop personal and social skills, thereby improving their future employment prospects and reducing the possibility of their entering the ranks of the long-term unemployed or becoming involved in drugs abuse.

I am interested to hear that a number of partnerships are not proceeding with a number projects. We informed the partnerships that money is available to be drawn down. I hope the Deputy will provide information on the projects to which he referred.

Mr. Allen: The Minister of State referred to the terms of reference of the youth services programmes. Will he indicate whether PLANET or the partnerships have indicated that their youth service programmes are not being developed because of the uncertainty over funding? Is he aware that certain projects have not been proceeded with as a result of that uncertainty?

Mr. E. Ryan: I am not aware that a number of projects have not been proceeded with. I have spoken to representatives of PLANET and I would be interested-----

Acting Chairman (Mr. McGrath): The time allocated for this question has elapsed. We must proceed to Question No. 20.

National Stadium.

20. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation when it is expected that the board of trustees, in whom the assets of Sports Campus Ireland will be entrusted, will be established; the manner in which the trustees will be appointed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15907/00]

24. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if the 50 metre swimming pool element of the National Stadium will be ready in time for the Special Olympics; and when a planning application for the National Stadium will be submitted. [15977/00]

27. Mr. S. Ryan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he will make a comprehensive statement on the up-to-date estimate of the cost of Sports Campus Ireland, with all knock-on costs included. [15924/00]

Dr. McDaid: I propose to take Questions Nos. 20, 24 and 27 together.

Deputies will be aware that, following the Government's decision in January last to proceed with the development of Campus and Stadium Ireland, a development company under the chairmanship of the former Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, Paddy Teahon, was established. The company has the responsibility for taking the project through the design and construction stages.

The first step in the development of Sports Campus Ireland will be a final decision on an aquatic centre to be ready for the Special Olympics World Summer Games in 2003. Following on from the original feasibility study, PricewaterhouseCoopers has been engaged to carry out a further feasibility study on Sports Campus Ireland and it is expected that the outcome of this study will be available in the near future. I understand the board of the development company will make a recommendation to the Government on this matter following consideration of the further feasibility study. The matter of a planning application for the stadium is one for the board of the development company and the appropriate planning authority.

The assets of the campus and stadium will be vested in a board of trustees which will be appointed by the Government in the near future. The trustees will be given terms of reference which will include confirming that the development of Campus and Stadium Ireland is in line with guiding principles to be set by the Government. I appreciate that Deputies John Bruton and Quinn agreed to nominate representatives to the board of trustees.

On the up-to-date estimate of the cost of Sports Campus Ireland, there has not been any change in the figure of £281 million set down by consultants, PricewaterhouseCoopers, in the original feasibility study published in January 2000.

Mr. O'Shea: The Minister's treatment of the figures is somewhat bewildering. The original estimate of the cost of Sports Campus Ireland was £281 million, to which has been added a further £20 million in respect of the construction of a 50 metre pool at the aquatic centre. The consultants studied 15 projects in other countries while drawing up their feasibility study and they discovered that, on average, such projects overran by approximately 73.4%. Taking that and the average overrun percentage into account, Sports Campus Ireland will cost more than £500 million.

Acting Chairman: A question please, Deputy.

Mr. O'Shea: We were recently informed that transfer of the State Laboratory from Abbotstown would cost £90 million. Is the Minister in a position to provide an overall figure - one which includes the cost of ancillary developments - for the cost of Sports Campus Ireland? Does he agree that the final cost will probably be in the region of £1 billion?

Dr. McDaid: As already stated, following completion of a comprehensive feasibility study, it was estimated that the construction of Sports Campus Ireland would cost £281 million. That remains the position. The Deputy should be aware that the French, the Welsh, the British, the Germans, the Australians and the Americans have also built stadia, the cost of which ranged from approximately £150 million to £300 million.

A further feasibility study has been carried out in respect of the aquatic centre because we want to show the world that we will be able to run a comprehensive Special Olympic Games in 2003. For that reason, a special aquatic centre must be provided. With regard to the ancillary developments to which the Deputy referred, there will be an additional cost of approximately £20 million. We could stay here until the cows come home outlining different figures but the current estimated cost of the stadium is approximately £300 million.

Mr. Allen: We could stay until the chickens come home to roost, rather than until the cows come home, because the chickens will come home to roost for the taxpayer. Is the Minister aware that in reply to Question No. 168 of 30 May, the Minister for Finance stated that the cost of relocating the Marine Institute and the State laboratories would be in the region of £90 million? That cost did not include the relocation cost of the farm. In view of this, who exactly is running the show? The Minister is on record in the media as saying the show is being driven by the Taoiseach's Department but the Taoiseach refuses to answer questions and passes them on to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation who is burying his head in the sand and repeating the mantra of £280 million.

Acting Chairman: The Deputy should put a question to the Minister.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister agree, for the sake of the taxpayers, to a moratorium being imposed on this lunatic project until such time as all aspects of the project have been examined by a Dáil committee?

Dr. McDaid: As I have stated previously, matters that relate to decentralisation are the responsibility of the Department of Finance. All decentralisation incurs a cost, and Abbotstown will not be an exception. Some 500 acres of State-owned property have been designated for Stadium Ireland.

Rather than being a lunatic project, the stadium will stand as a potent symbol of where Irish people are at at the beginning of the new millennium. We may not benefit greatly from the stadium but future generations of Irish people will.

On the 50 metre swimming pool which is to be ready in 2003 for the Special Olympics, will the Minister outline a timeframe within which planning permission will be sought for this project and can he give the House a categoric guarantee that the 50 metre pool will be ready in time for the Special Olympics? Obviously, we would all support him in regard to that project.

Dr. McDaid: The Deputy referred to the 15 other stadia and pointed out that the costs would overrun. I pointed out that the top price for the other stadia currently being built is £300 million. Of course development and construction costs are increasing, but I would argue that whatever its cost a national stadium will be an asset to this country for generations to come and should be supported by all Members.

On the 50 metre swimming pool, I cannot give the Deputy a categoric answer as to whether it will be ready by 2003, having regard to planning permission, etc. We are certainly aiming to have the pool completed by 2003 and I want to assure the Deputy and those involved in the Special Olympics that if we encounter problems with planning permission, I have a plan B.

Mr. Allen: I presume plan B is to go down to Limerick where there will be a 50 metre pool. Does the Minister agree the difference between the 15 other stadia and our proposed stadium is that each of the 15 will have anchor tenants whereas the national stadium will not, unless the Eircom-FAI project is wrecked by other means or the Minister is aware of some other agenda? Does the Minister agree the proposed stadium will not have an anchor tenant and that it will be under-utilised and will not provide a return on the cost of between £500 million and £750 million? I am not exaggerating those figures because the Minister confirmed today that the minimum cost at this point will be between £400 million and £500 million.

Dr. McDaid: I have always stated my belief that it would be in the international interest and in the interest of Irish soccer generally if the FAI was to come on board with us in Stadium Ireland. That offer stands.

Mr. Allen: The Minister should leave the FAI to do its own business.

Dr. McDaid: Together, the FAI and the State could expedite the upgrading of our national soccer infrastructure. The upgrading of that infrastructure is paramount to getting people to return to soccer matches. Match attendance figures are the lifeblood of any association and we want to ensure families can return to soccer matches at affordable prices. There is something drastically wrong with Irish soccer. The National League final replay, for example, which was played in the middle of Monaghan, attracted 25,000 people whereas the FAI cup final replay in the middle of Dublin attracted only 6,000 people.

Mr. Allen: What has that to do with anything?

Dr. McDaid: We must encourage people to return to soccer matches. If the FAI and the State worked together, we could improve our national infrastructure but, having said that, I acknowledge that the FAI is entitled to pursue a project with Eircom, and the Government will provide it with any assistance it requires.

Drugs Task Forces.

21. Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if guidelines exist setting out the frequency that local drugs task forces should meet having regard to the fact that a person (details supplied) nominated to one such task force in November 1999 has not yet been notified of a meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15909/00]

Mr. E. Ryan: While there are no formal guidelines setting out the frequency of local drugs task force meetings, the task force referred to in the Deputy's question meets, on average, every three weeks.

The task force is located in the Dublin Corporation and, to a lesser extent, the South Dublin County Council electoral areas. In view of this, I understand the task force issued letters on 22 October 1999, inviting Dublin Corporation to nominate three councillors and inviting South Dublin County Council to nominate one councillor to participate in its work.

On 30 May 2000, Dublin Corporation replied to this correspondence, forwarding details of its three nominees. I am informed that the task force is still awaiting a reply from South Dublin County Council and has issued a reminder, requesting it to forward its nomination at its earliest convenience. I have asked the National Drugs Strategy Team to make contact with the county council in order that what appears to have been an oversight can be sorted out as soon as possible.

Mr. O'Shea: Does the Minister agree the person who is the subject of this question and a former Member of this House, has been treated very badly? I understand he was nominated last November and has still not attended a meeting of the task force. Does the Minister agree that the fact that local authorities are not responding to correspondence from the drugs task forces reflects on his overall stewardship? Does he agree delays such as this should not occur and that a proper monitoring system should be put in place to ensure this type of time lag does not occur in regard to an operation which is so vital to an enormous social problem in our society?

Mr. E. Ryan: A handbook on the task forces was issued in which we urged public representatives to become involved in the task forces. The person in question is eminently suited to being a member of the task force. The local authorities in question received correspondence on this matter to which Dublin Corporation replied, nominating three people, but to which South Dublin County Council did not reply. I am not sure whether it is a mix up.

Mr. O'Shea: But some seven or eight months later.

Mr. E. Ryan: I agree and I do not believe that is acceptable but, in general, the task forces have done a fantastic job over the past number of years and I would not criticise them. They are under a great deal of pressure and some of the work is done on a voluntary basis.

This issue will be resolved. There has been a problem with public representatives being on task forces, but everywhere I go I urge local drug task forces to engage local representatives and bring them on board. This case can be resolved. Obviously there is a breakdown in communications somewhere along the line.

Mr. O'Shea: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Ryan, for his response. I take it that he will see to it that this matter is resolved quickly. It is equally important that he should carry out a study of what is happening to make sure that there are no similar situations. If there are similar situations, he should make sure that they are rectified immediately.

Acting Chairman: Does the Deputy have a question?

Mr. O'Shea: Yes. Will the Minister of State give the House an undertaking that he will make sure that there is no such logjam regarding membership of these committees and that he will set about immediately establishing the situation and taking immediate and urgent action if there are other problems?

Mr. E. Ryan: Yes, I will. As I said, when I spoke to local drug task forces I urged them to include local public representatives. I must say, in fairness to the local drug task forces, that there has been a mixed response from many public representatives. I am not saying that this is the case here because, as I said, this person is eminently suitable for it, but some public representatives have not responded positively. However, I will check to see if there are other public representatives who sought membership of the task forces and for one reason or another have not been able to do so.

All the projects in which the drug task forces are engaged are being assessed to see if we can mainstream them and move them along. The task forces are extremely busy. They are doing a great deal of work, as the Deputy will be aware. However, I will find out if there is a problem with other public representatives being unable to gain membership of local drug task forces.

Sydney Olympic Games Sponsorship.

22. Mr. O'Shea asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the proposals, if any, he has to withdraw grant aid from any sporting organisation refusing to enter into meaningful negotiations to resolve the dispute over clothing to be worn by Irish track and field athletes at the Sydney Olympics; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15902/00]

23. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he has received accreditation from the Olympic Council of Ireland to attend the Sydney Olympic Games in his official capacity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15903/00]

39. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the latest discussions he has had with the Olympic Council of Ireland and the Athletics Association of Ireland regarding the dispute over the clothing to be worn by Irish track and field athletes at the Olympic Games in Sydney; if he plans to take any further steps to ensure that the preparation of athletes is not disrupted by this dispute; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15905/00]

Dr. McDaid: I propose to take Questions Nos. 22, 23 and 39 together. As I have already stated on a number of occasions, and most recently in reply to a Parliamentary Question No. 126 of 1 June 2000, responsibility for the dispute regarding the clothing to be worn by Irish track and field athletes competing in the Sydney Olympic Games rests squarely with the Olympic Council of Ireland and the Athletics Association of Ireland, and only they can resolve it. Contacts are being maintained with both organisations in an effort to bring about a resolution. I am hopeful that both organisations will, in the best interests of our athletes and Irish sport, agree a way forward.

As no doubt Deputies will aware, funding for the national governing bodies of sport and for the Olympic Council of Ireland is now solely the responsibility of the Irish Sports Council. Accordingly, the question of my withdrawing support from any such organisation does not arise.

I understand that accreditation for attendance at the Olympic Games is usually arranged on location at the time of the games. As I have not yet decided whether to attend the Sydney games, the question of accreditation does not arise.

Mr. O'Shea: I thank the Minister for that reply. I reiterate my personal support for his efforts to bring this matter to a conclusion. I was utterly appalled to read in a national newspaper that the President of the Olympic Council of Ireland stated-----

Acting Chairman: A question, Deputy.

Mr. O'Shea: -----that unless the Minister changed his attitude and saw reason, he would not be accredited to attend the Olympics in Sydney. Does the Minister consider it appalling that a member of a sporting organisation, albeit the president, would threaten the Minister in charge of sport in the State? Has he taken any action regarding that insult to democratic politics and to this House which was delivered by the President of the Olympic Council of Ireland? Has the State arrived at the position where tin gods can insult and threaten Ministers with impunity?

Dr. McDaid: I appreciate the Deputy's support and indeed all the Deputies' support on this issue but the answer is no. I did not respond to what was said at that time and I do not think really that it is worthy of a response.

A degree of peace has broken out. I have always maintained that I tried to steer a line down the middle of this entire area and that is what I continue to try to do. I hope to get a resolution as soon as possible. However, I appreciate the Deputy's comments.

Mr. Allen: Would the Minister agree that it is hard to understand how two major organisations could enter into contractual agreements knowing full well that such agreements brought them into conflict at Atlanta in 1996? Would he again urge both organisations to reach some form of compromise in order that the good name of Irish sport and the well being of the athletes who will represent Ireland abroad will not be tarnished again as it was in Atlanta?

The threats made to the Minister were despicable. I would urge him to attend the Sydney games as Minister - he is still of course Minister. If the President of the Olympic Council of Ireland does not accredit the Minister, it could be done by the international Olympic movement in Switzerland.

Dr. McDaid: This issue will be addressed fully after the Olympic Games. That is my understanding from the correspondence my Department has received to date. Unfortunately, of the 200 countries attending the Olympics, Ireland is the only country in which the problem has not been resolved.

It is a sensitive issue. We must appreciate that Adidas and Asics, the two corporate sponsors involved, have been a tremendous asset to sport in Ireland down through the years. They signed contracts in good faith with both of these organisations and we want them to continue to support Irish sport. It is a delicate issue. I have maintained contact with all the relevant bodies concerned, including the sponsors, and I hope we will get a resolution to this intractable issue in the near future. I appreciate the Deputies' assistance in this issue. They may rest assured that as soon as I have word of any breakthrough, I will let both of them know immediately.

Mr. O'Shea: Would the Minister agree that the threat delivered by the President of the Olympic Council was diabolical in terms of the example it gave to the young people of Ireland, either regarding sport or democratic institutions?

As he stated in reply to Deputy Allen, the question of whether the Minister attends the Olympics is still an issue, but I would ask him to take account of that particular insult to this House, to democratic politics and to his Office, as Minister, when it comes to considering whether that organisation will be entitled to funding in the future.

Acting Chairman: I am anxious to get to another question. If Deputy Allen wishes to ask a supplementary, the Minister may respond to both together.

Mr. Allen: After the Olympic Games will the Minister speak with the individual federations which make up the Olympic movement because this has been a cancer in sport for some time? As somebody who addressed the funding issue vis-à-vis the Olympic Council of Ireland and suffered because of it by different means, I ask him to look, in conjunction with the Irish Sports Council, at the future funding of the Olympic Council of Ireland once the Olympic Games are over.

Dr. McDaid: Both questions concern the funding issue. I will not do anything which would disrupt the Sydney Olympic Games for the athletes or make any decisions on funding at this point. As I said, it is also a matter for the Irish Sports Council. The problem will be resolved in the aftermath of the games. The problem arises on this occasion from the failure to bring the two sides together to agree on a policy. The individual federations that make up the Olympic movement have always been funded by the State and will continue to be. The matter will be resolved after the Olympic Games and I see no reason it could not be resolved at this point.

I have received a letter from the Olympic Council of Ireland which states that the Olympic charter, during the Sydney games, is copperfastened and the national Olympic committee has sole authority to determine uniforms and clothing at all times during these games, including all sports competitions and ceremonies related thereto. It is just a matter of confirming, "Yes, we are right". I stress that the information in this letter came from the OCI. The AAI insists that the IAAF has the right to choose the gear. I have had no response to my correspondence with the IAAF so I must assume that organisation is in agreement. However, I appreciate the ongoing support of Deputies. A certain level of peace surrounds the issue at this time and following contacts with all the parties involved, I hope we will have a resolution soon.

Mr. Allen: Do I understand the Minister to say an agreement is in existence and that the athletes and we know what gear will be worn in Sydney?

Dr. McDaid: No, that is not the case. Contacts have been made with all the participants, with both organisations, sponsors and others involved. It is hoped a resolution will be forthcoming but at present I do not know what gear will be used.

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