An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, the conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003, agreed to?

Mr. Rabbitte: This is the second guillotine this morning. We had a guillotine yesterday and it has been used several times in this session. I have not seen the guillotine so frequently resorted to by a Government in its first year in office, and not immediately in advance of rising for the summer recess. Like Deputy Kenny, I oppose the proposal to adjourn tomorrow.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We will come to that matter. At the moment we are dealing with the proposal relating to the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte: Deputy Kenny said his bit earlier and I do not want to rise again. I look at the empty benches on the Government side. The Tánaiste gave a commitment to my colleague, Deputy Higgins, last week that there would be a debate this week on Iraq. There is no reason the Taoiseach ought not faciliate such a debate tomorrow.

Given the gravity of the situation, the way things have changed since we last debated it, the humanitarian dimension, the changing situation in the United Kingdom there is no reason the Taoiseach would not respond to the comments of Deputy Kenny and the Labour Party to have that debate tomorrow.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The question before the House is with regard to the proposals relating to the conclusion of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

Mr. Sargent: I oppose those proposals. There is an air of unreality in this Chamber. We are talking about important Bills but in the context of the global situation that faces us it is crazy and irresponsible of this House to talk about guillotining these Bills and going on a break until 25 March. I ask that the Government take into account the serious responsibility of this House, and particularly of the Government, to debate the issue of Iraq in the event of an escalation of hostilities when this country, by its Constitution, will be flouting both its own laws and international law. That is an issue for which the Government has to accept responsibility. We are endeavouring to comply with the law and the Government is thwarting that effort.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It is imperative to record our opposition to the proposal to guillotine a further important Bill. In the context of the situation vis-à-vis Iraq, and the question I posed to the Taoiseach yesterday, will he outline exactly when and how he intends to accommodate a special session of the Dáil in the event of full-blown war being visited on the innocent of Iraq in the period during the recess in the coming week? Will the Taoiseach specify exactly, given that the proposal is to reconvene the Dáil on the following Tuesday? Will the Dáil be reconvened in the coming week if hostilities are visited on the people of Iraq beyond even current levels? Will he make clear to the House his real intentions?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy can raise that matter under the fourth proposal. We are dealing with the second proposal relating to the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

The Taoiseach: In relation to No. 15, the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003, was debated for seven hours on Committee Stage last week. Three hours has been allocated for debate today. There are ten amendments, seven of which were discussed on Committee Stage and referred back. Given the amount of time provided for debate today it is not likely to require a guillotine. Some of the parties who are objecting to the guillotine did not bother to turn up on Committee Stage.

On the question of Iraq, I gave a clear commitment in a reply yesterday to Deputy Ó Caoláin, which I had promised the House previously, that if the situation changes, if the UN resolution is not resolved or if is resolved, that we would recall the House next week. Ministers have not gone on a break. They are going around the world doing their business for this country and we will do that as successfully as we can.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, the conclusion of the Report and Final Stages of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003, agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 16, the conclusion of the Report and Final Stages of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2002, agreed to?

Mr. R. Bruton: No, it is not agreed. This Bill is being taken in the absence of the Minister and the Minister of State who are in Cheltenham. The Taoiseach is proposing to provide 75 minutes to discuss 47 amendments. A long debate took place on Committee Stage and many of these amendments are unresolved, specifically in relation to the credit union movement whose regulation is now being put into the Central Bank and the regulatory authority against its wishes. Also, consumer protection is being put under the Central Bank quite clearly against the wishes of consumer representatives. There are important issues to be debated on this Bill which will not be reached in this schedule. I recall that last week we discussed the Finance Bill when there were 93 amendments to be debated, only 26 of which were reached. Many amendments, introducing important measures, tabled by the Minister for Finance on Report Stage were never debated. This is no way to run important issues in this House.

Deputies: Hear, hear.

Mr. R. Bruton: It is making a mockery of the House to do that. There is no point in talking about Dáil reform and asking Deputies to devote more time to serious business if the House is to be treated with contempt by the Minister for Finance, in particular, and the Government generally.

Mr. Ring: They close down every second week.

Ms Burton: There was a long debate on this Bill on Committee Stage. The Minister for Finance undertook to come back and explain in detail the implications of his proposals for the credit union movement and the outcome of his discussions with the credit union movement. In addition, he undertook to explain at length the new regulation in respect of consumer affairs and the Central Bank's role in relation to consumer affairs and how consumers would be reassured that the new regulatory authority would properly look after their affairs. In the absence of the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State there will be no proper debate on the Report Stage of this important Bill which will govern the regulation of financial services here. We saw yesterday how financial services have lost about €2 billion in equity for investors this year alone. It is an important issue for most families here and the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State will not be available due to their engagements in Cheltenham. It is not good enough for the families whose pension funds are at risk by the collapse of the equity market. It is a really important issue for families.

Mr. Boyle: Further to this proposal and the comment made by the Taoiseach earlier, the reduction in time for Report Stage is an insult to the House. It affects, most particularly, Members of smaller parties who are not members of particular committees and whose only opportunity is to speak on Report Stage. That the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State are not present to take the Bill is an undoubted insult to the House. In regard to the incident the Taoiseach mentioned, as social and family affairs spokesperson for my party, I was not present for the debate on Committee Stage last week, but I was in this Chamber, as finance spokesperson for my party, debating Report Stage of the Finance Bill. If the House is to operate effectively and if Opposition Members are to be properly informed and contribute to all legislation it is the Taoiseach's responsibility and that of his chief whip make appropriate time available to allow us do our job properly.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Before the Taoiseach starts to point the finger of accusation at small parties who cannot accommodate attendance at several different committees, given that we do not have the gift of bi-locaton, he might look around the front benches of his party this morning. Many of the Cabinet Ministers have more pictures in The Irish Times today than they would ordinarily get if they were performing in this Chamber. It has nothing to do with political representation. They have more photographs than do the jockeys in the winners' enclosure in the newspapers this morning.

The position in relation to the Finance Bill that passed through this House last week is that the Report and Final Stages were dealt with in the most disgraceful way. There was no substantive debate on Report and Final Stages of the Finance Bill. Quite clearly with the intent of guillotining the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill there will be a repeat of last week's performance. The reality is that we will not have the responsible Ministers present.

Mr. Quinn: On a point of order, who is taking the Bill?

The Taoiseach: The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan.

An Leas Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with the conclusion of the Central Bank and Filnancial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2002 agreed to?

Deputies: No.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 16 be agreed."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 47.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tà, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil today agreed?

Mr. M. Higgins: We have, for two days now, heard a new spin on a commitment given last week that we would have a debate on Iraq. We were told such a debate could take place if there was a change in position. Apart from the fact that that change has taken place, who is to say whether the debate is justified? I put it to the Taoiseach that there are matters on Iraq that have never been discussed in this House. Neither he nor the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, has made one substantial reference in any statement to the Dáil on the humanitarian consequences of a war. Not one paragraph has been devoted to that issue. Yet, by the time this House returns on Tuesday, 25 March it is possible that up to one million mothers may be affected by war, there may be 100,000 direct casualties and 400,000 secondary ones, ten to 15 million people on food dependency may also be affected. That that does not merit a debate in this House is a disgrace.

The Taoiseach is fudging the question on where he stands regarding the illegality or otherwise of a pre-emptive strike and the action by a super State outside the ambit of the United Nations Charter. That matter has not been discussed in this House. The Taoiseach says he is in favour of the United Nations. Is he in favour of the UN Charter? If not, which proposal in the Security Council does he favour? If an illegal action takes place, what is the status of all his previous actions on Shannon? The Taoiseach as good as said this morning that irrespective of legality or otherwise he will allow Shannon to be used for business purposes. That is a change.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I take it the Deputy is opposing the proposal.

Mr. M. Higgins: I have been a Member of this House for a long time. I do not want it to happen in my name that we went into a long break on the verge of a war that will affect so many people as I have described and will change international politics. The Chief Whip has come up with a cheap suggestion that if matters change we will have a debate. There is time for a debate tonight, tomorrow or next week. I do not want it to happen in my name that this House adjourned on the brink of war, on the verge of illegality with all its consequences not only of a humanitarian kind but of an international legal and political kind. The Government will come back on the 25 March happy in the knowledge that it got away without offering an opinion. One wishes we were members of the Security Council. We might at least have had to make up our mind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a long statement.

Mr. M. Higgins: I oppose the Order of Business and will continue to do so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A brief statement from the Deputy, please.

Mr. M. Higgins: The blood of Iraqi children and civilians will be on the hands of all the people who would not permit a discussion on the issue.

They are the ones who would not allow it to be discussed. This Parliament will have been shamed. It is a disgrace the Taoiseach does not have an opinion and is not having a debate. He is slinking off to the United States half hoping he will give an excuse and will come back with more. It is very wrong.

Mr. Kenny: I have already made my objection to this proposal. There are 39 Bills on the Order Paper due for publication and to be brought before the House. Irrespective of the very cogent argument made by Deputy Michael Higgins about the debate on Iraq, which was promised by the Tánaiste last week-----

Mr. M. Higgins: And the Minister for Defence.

Mr. Kenny: ----- and the Minister for Defence, the House should sit tomorrow and next week. We have been left under a cloud of confusion that the House might be recalled but we do not know under what circumstances. The House should sit tomorrow to discuss Iraq and one of the Bills on the Order Paper. There is no excuse for the House not to sit tomorrow. The Taoiseach will be excused to go to America where he has important business to do on behalf of the Government, namely, to outline our consistent position, whatever that may be, to the American President. The House should be able to sit in his absence, as we have done for the past number of weeks.

Mr. Gormley: This morning the Taoiseach ducked, weaved and hid on the question of Iraq. It is almost as if the Government's position on Iraq is classified information, not even available-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are discussing the proposal.

Mr. Gormley: Like Deputy Michael Higgins, I am opposed to this adjournment because we require a debate on Iraq. The position is changing every day. What are the precise circumstances in which we will have a debate on Iraq? Reading between the lines of what the Taoiseach said this morning, it is clear that he is prepared to allow the US to continue to use Shannon Airport even if there is not a UN resolution, which is a disgrace. It is disgraceful that the Taoiseach, as the leader of a so-called neutral country, endorses that position. The Taoiseach said he had respect for the UN, but he does not have respect for the UN or for this House.

Deputies: Withdraw that.

Mr. Gormley: If he had respect for this House, he would allow us to have a debate.

Mr. M. Smith: That is outrageous.

Mr. Gormley: What is the Taoiseach hiding? We must oppose this proposal because this House is slowly becoming irrelevant. The Government is treating this House with total contempt and that is why we oppose this proposal.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I also oppose the proposition that we adjourn until next Tuesday week. I asked the Taoiseach earlier today and yesterday about bringing the House together for an emergency debate on any escalation in the situation. I emphasise the word "escalation" because I argued last week that the US-British axis of war on the people of Iraq is already in operation with bombing occurring in different locations throughout Iraq.

(Interruptions).

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It is clear the Taoiseach's somewhat disregard for the importance of this issue is reflected by some of his backbenchers. The Taoiseach gave a commitment and yesterday he stated that he would honour the commitment. I ask him to be specific because he was unspecified yesterday. I have already asked the Taoiseach today but I got no reply. I ask him to be specific as to exactly when and in what way he will accommodate a special debate in this House, a debate which should be scheduled now. Will he schedule such a debate now or what are his intentions to carry out his so-called commitment to honour a promise made to this House? I want it spelled out clearly. It is imperative we do that. It is not acceptable that we will resume business on Tuesday week next if, in the interim, there is a full scale onslaught against the innocent people of Iraq.

Time is being lost on a raft of important issues. The Taoiseach was not in the House last week as he had important business to attend to on Tuesday and part of Wednesday. This House has not had the opportunity to engage with the Taoiseach on the very important talks which took place in Hillsborough. All that is being held back in terms of questions to the Taoiseach which are well down the Order Paper. That issue needs to be addressed and I do not think the briefings to some of the parties are enough in terms of fulfilling the obligation to properly inform the Members of this House of the detail of the discussions which took place and the positions reached. To accommodate a proper debate on legislation, the House should not go into recess in the coming week.

The Taoiseach: Yesterday I stated that there had been a prior agreement that the House would not sit tomorrow and would sit on 4 April. In response to Deputy Michael Higgins, Deputy Ó Caoláin and others, as I said yesterday to Deputy Mitchell, we have had several debates on Iraq in this session.

Mr. M. Higgins: Not on the issues I mentioned.

The Taoiseach: I have answered Leaders' Questions time and again on this issue in the past few weeks. As regards the humanitarian issue, it is not true to say it was not discussed in the House. On 11 February-----

Mr. M. Higgins: I said it was not in the Taoiseach's speech.

The Taoiseach: -----the Minister referred to confidential briefings from the UN Secretariat and the extensive plans which would be made in regard to the possible humanitarian issues. That was one month ago. This country has committed money to the UNHCR and to UNICEF for their operations this year. In regard to humanitarian aid, we will do what we can to help. The humanitarian conference on Iraq held in Geneva on 15-16 February was referred to in the House, so it is not true to say humanitarian issues were not discussed in this House.

Mr. J. Higgins: Why is the Taoiseach helping the bombers to get over there?

The Taoiseach: What Deputy Gormley stated was entirely incorrect. I said the Government would make its decision and communicate it to the House when we have a special debate, if we need such a debate. We will need a special debate when the Security Council has finished the process which is ongoing. Whether it agrees to a new resolution, which is our position - we are all aware of the consequences of not agreeing - we will then have a debate in this House. I stated that yesterday and I do so again.

Mr. J. Higgins: Ridiculous.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil today agreed to?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the adjournment be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 50.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá: Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl: Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.