Parliamentary Debates 1998
This Web site contains the text of the Parliamentary Debates  - unrevised (excluding Parliamentary Questions) as published on daily basis in 1998. Please note that the full text of the Parliamentary Debates - revised (including questions) for 1919 --- is now available on-line at: historical-debates.oireachtas.ie. The text of the current parliamentary debates 2004 --- is available at debates.oireachtas.ie. The main Oireachtas site is www.oireachtas.ie. See also Houses' Web Sites.

Ireland-America Economic Advisory Board.

1. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach when he will next meet the Ireland-America Economic Advisory Board. [14332/98]

Mr. J. Bruton: When the Taoiseach last answered questions about the board he said he hoped it would be able to assist in bringing private sector investment into infrastructural projects here. In view of the urgent need to bring private sector money into the development of water, sewerage, telecommunications and other infrastructural projects, what progress has been made in that regard?

The Taoiseach: One of the issues discussed on 18 March at the meeting with members of the board was private sector investment and the supply of venture capital. It was not a question that they would bring in the money, but since those individuals are involved in finance companies and other companies dealing in this business, their advice would be important on this matter. If some of the companies involved were asked about investing in such projects I have no doubt they would be interested, but they would see it more as an issue for the Irish market.

When those companies come here, hopefully in the autumn - it is a question of attracting a large number of them - they will make a significant input to the private-public partnership initiative. They have an amount of experience in this area which will be useful to this country. I would like them to talk to people in the finance world who could invest money in projects here rather than do so directly themselves.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will the Taoiseach agree there is a very large amount of funds in the United States looking for a home, that one of the reasons the United States stock market is seriously overvalued on a price earnings basis is that there is so much money, particularly mutual fund money, that cannot find an appropriate home and that this is an ideal opportunity to bring funds into Ireland and place them in infrastructural developments where there will be a long-term return suitable to the pension requirements of many of these funds?

The Taoiseach: That is the case, but there is a huge number of Irish pension funds and insurance funds with an enormous amount of money looking for a home and I would rather that money had a home here than be put into the Far East. Those funds receded from that market in the past few years.

Mr. Quinn: I hope so.

The Taoiseach: In 1993-4 I undertook the initiative to develop seed capital and venture capital, which is working well. The issue is not a shortage of money in the Irish market, it is to get public-private partnership to work here, and that is what the Government is engaged in.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will the Taoiseach agree it is the Government's job to put in place opportunities for private-public sector partnership in infrastructure? If the funds available are not being invested it is because the Government has not produced the financial investments into which the money can be placed. What is the Taoiseach doing about that? I disagree with his view on where pension funds should invest. Given the nature of pension funds, they should spread their risk across a number of economies.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is widening the scope of the question which asks when the Taoiseach will meet with the board.

The Taoiseach: Perhaps Deputy Bruton does not fully understand how this matter works. Pension funds spread their risk very thinly in the Irish economy and have done so for many years.

Mr. J. Bruton: I understand perfectly well how it works and I do not need to be patronised by the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach: I am amazed Deputy Bruton does not know that we have already moved on Telecom, which is going through the due diligence process. That will be the first major company that will, hopefully, receive vast amounts of money. I hope other semi-State companies follow in that regard. Various Ministers are moving to bring private sector finance to such companies.

Mr. Quinn: Have the proposals prepared by IBEC and others for a public-private partnership been referred to the advisory board for its comment, having regard to its experience in raising bonds for various US states and cities? When the board meets the Taoiseach in the autumn perhaps it might be useful to get a detailed analysis of those proposals.

The Taoiseach: I discussed that matter with and received comments from a number of members of the advisory board. The Government has since moved on from the IBEC document. The Department of Finance recently put a comprehensive memorandum before Government on this issue, which is due for discussion again. I hope to discuss that matter with a number of Irish financial institutions. I have already got their views so that the Department of Finance can proceed on this matter.

Deputy Bruton is correct in that there is an enormous number, £1.5 billion worth, of water, sewerage and drainage projects in the Department of the Environment and Local Government and it is important that we find a mechanism to progress this matter. I had a number of meetings with Ministers about progressing the capital programme for roads and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government has been working on initiatives in that area. We should use private finance in these schemes because we will never have a sufficient capital programme to deal with them.

Mr. J. Bruton: In view of the fact that IBEC made a detailed submission to the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government about private-public sector partnerships in regard to water, sewerage and roads, will the Taoiseach consider inviting IBEC to join him the next time he meets the Ireland-America Economic Advisory Board? Perhaps that might be the most appropriate way to advance this project so it will be able to attract American as well as domestic funds into these urgent projects, the lack of which is driving house prices through the roof.

The Taoiseach: I am not opposed to that. I met IBEC and, as I said, its document is being used partly as a catalyst for an existing Department of Finance document. It has shown initiative in this area, which I appreciate. I hope the Americans will be able to meet some of the banks and finance houses here to try to get the scheme to work. There were many problems with public-private finance schemes or partnerships developed in the United Kingdom. It has worked through them but faced many downs as well as ups. We should look at the experience in America and the United Kingdom to try to get it right. That is the way to go, which I support.

2. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the number of external consultants engaged on projects for his Department and agencies or committees that come under the aegis of his Department. [14417/98]

The Taoiseach: There are 17 consultants engaged by my Department and the bodies under its aegis. Six of these relate to my Department and 11 relate to the bodies under its aegis.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach need all these consultants?

The Taoiseach: Six consultants are working in my Department. I am sure this question is motivated by the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who examined consultancies engaged by Departments from 1994 to the end of 1996. I welcome the report as a very useful study on the use of external consultants. It highlights the need for Departments to focus on the issues involved in engaging consultants and obtaining the best value for money.

In many cases, consultancies are done because people are second-guessing or those in the Department do not have the expertise. Consultancies are quite costly, as we have seen from the report. The Committee of Public Accounts will examine the findings of the report this month and the Secretary General of the Department of Finance will also bring forward proposals. The Department of Finance is committed to taking on board the recommendations in relation to the guidelines, which it will issue to consultancies in the future. We should be slower to engage consultants because it is quite costly.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach agree that much of the time consultants are employed by Departments which already know what should be done but do not have the courage to make the decision and want somebody else to tell them?

The Taoiseach: That might be the case. My objection to consultancy reports is slightly different in that when they report, they do not give clear recommendations and too often they say either on the one hand or the other hand.

Mr. J. Bruton: That is fair too.

The Taoiseach: When one studies the recommendations, one almost needs another consultant to explain them. It would be better if conclusions were reached. Sometimes it would be as quick if an official or somebody else drew up a report. Over the years we have built up a type of consultants fever in that we tend to act on the recommendations of consultants rather than on those of good, sane people in the public service.

I have tried to avoid bringing in too many consultants. Yesterday, I defended a good report on consultants involved in a CD-ROM project in the Office of the Attorney General. I congratulate them on the work they are doing. Sometimes consultants are needed to do a job. It is more beneficial when consultants are employed to do a job and bring something to a conclusion rather than simply second-guess people and issue a report. The brief I read the other night would suggest some of this type of information is extremely costly.

Mr. J. Bruton: I agree. Does the Taoiseach agree that as long as there is adequate transparency there is often no good substitute for an old fashioned political decision and that frequently the resort to consultants occurs because there is an unwillingness for whatever reason - this can occur in all Administrations - to make the political call? Does the Taoiseach agree that is the most constructive conclusion to be drawn from the recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

The Taoiseach: I accept that but as Deputy Bruton knows as well as I do, the good old-fashioned political calls made some years ago were different from those made today. If one makes a political call today, one would probably find oneself before a tribunal.

Mr. J. Bruton: It depends on the nature of the political call. We are elected to make those calls.

The Taoiseach: I accept that.

Mr. Barrett: Does one of the 17 consultancies engaged by the Taoiseach's Department relate to a review of the Navy and Air Corps? When will that report be available given that it is nearly two years since these people were appointed? Is he aware the initial soundings from the report were totally contrary to what they were asked to do in the first place? Will he assure us that fees will not be paid because of inefficiency in this matter and that fees will only be paid in respect of the work which was requested of these people? Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the efficiency audit group is the right body to engage consultants in such cases? Should it not be done directly by the Department in question which has more expertise to offer?

The Taoiseach: I do not know the history of this matter------

Mr. Barrett: The Taoiseach would have a fair idea, as would the Minister beside him.

The Taoiseach: ----- Deputy Barrett was Minister for Defence around that time so he will remember why he undertook this task. On the question, I understand the report will leave my Department, if it has not already left, and go to Government shortly. The reason a second study was carried out was that it was felt the first one was not comprehensive enough.

Mr. Barrett: It did not address the issues.

The Taoiseach: It did not address the issues comprehensively and it was necessary to carry out a second study.

Mr. Barrett: I ask that the matter be examined. Double fees should not be paid.

The Taoiseach: I will raise that.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will the Price Waterhouse report on the Army and the Air Corps be published before the end of the month?

The Taoiseach: Yes.

Task Forces.

3. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the task forces, if any, on which his Department is represented that have concluded their work. [14418/98]

The Taoiseach: My Department is represented on three task forces, none of which has concluded its work. The task forces are the Task Force on the Implementation of the Report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, which is under the aegis of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; the Implementation Task Force on Communicating Europe, which is now under the aegis of the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Task Force on the Integration of Local Government and Local Development Systems which is under the aegis of the Department of the Environment and Local Government.

Mr. J. Bruton: What about the taxi forum?

The Taoiseach: The taxi forum comes under the remit of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and is working extremely well I am told it will report in July.

Mr. J. Bruton: Can we take it the Oscar Faber report will be implemented and the taxi forum will not be used to delay it?

Mr. Quinn: That is the last thing the Deputy can take.

The Taoiseach: Is Deputy Bruton in favour of the Oscar Faber report?

Mr. J. Bruton: Yes.

The Taoiseach: In total?

Mr. J. Bruton: Unambiguously.

The Taoiseach: The taxi men will be interested in that.

Mr. J. Bruton: I know that. My eyes are wide open. Choices have to be made and that is why I spoke about political decisions. A political decision must be made about more taxis.

The Taoiseach: I do not think that report is as a result of a political decision.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Is the Taoiseach aware that under my predecessor, the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, £30,000 was spent publishing a report on the Communicating Europe task force and on the need for an implementing task force? Given the great concern that there is not enough information about Europe, as expressed by many people in the recent Amsterdam Treaty, how many times has the Communicating Europe task force met since it was transferred to the Department of Foreign Affairs and how many times has the Taoiseach's Department attended to such a task force? Is it accurate that since the last Government left office, the task force has met on one or two occasions only, if it has met at all?

The Taoiseach: That task force is under the remit of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I have no information on it. The Deputy should table a question for the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Will the Taoiseach say if the representative of his Department attended any meetings of the task force since the last Government left office? There is constant complaint in the House and outside about the dearth of information on Europe. The Communicating Europe task force was set up, met regularly under my chairmanship when I was Minister and was transferred to the Department of Foreign Affairs. The Taoiseach has a representative on that task force. How many meetings has he or she attended?

The Taoiseach: If the Deputy asks me a question about that matter I can get him the information. I do not accept there is a dearth of information about Europe. In the last referendum, with the help of the media, there was an enormous amount of information about Europe.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Why has the Taoiseach a task force?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy set it up.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Deputy Tom Kitt set it up, I chaired it. Why is it not meeting?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy is not opposed to it. It is still working.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Why is it not meeting? During the last referendum campaign there was an enormous amount of information about Europe.

Computerisation Programme.

4. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach whether the development of an IT system for the processing of Government documentation has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14420/98]

The Taoiseach: An IT database to assist in the processing of documentation relating to the Government meetings has been developed. It is due to begin testing in the next few weeks and, subject to the outcome of the tests, is expected to become fully operational during the summer period.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will this mean the pink slips will be redundant?

The Taoiseach: I think it will be a while before that happens but the intention is to remove the enormous volume of paper used in Government memoranda and Government decisions. It will take some time to achieve that aim. It is hoped to build a database which in due course will hold most of the information and provide a more suitable treatment for the paper flow in Government decisions.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will this mean that the Secretary to the Government will be tapping away at his computer at meetings?

The Taoiseach: His office will certainly be tapping away because the intention is that instead of everything being printed 25 times and circulated in the present manner, there will be a closer mechanism for dealing with it. There are technical and security considerations which are being worked on and which will create some difficulties. It is a good initiative. Deputy Bruton, Deputy Quinn and others who have been at the Cabinet table will be aware there is far too much paper. There is an enormous amount of paper that is rarely scrutinised - I will not say looked at - and it is not really necessary. The idea is to use IT processes to deal with Government memoranda at meetings in a more efficient way in the future.

Mr. J. Bruton: I am looking forward to seeing this work at first hand.

The Taoiseach: Many sections of the public service are almost at the paperless stage. I would have thought ten years ago I would never see that, but it has happened.

Government Procedure Instructions.

5. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach whether the revision of the Government Procedure Instructions booklet has been completed. [14421/98]

The Taoiseach: Preparation of the revised Government Procedure Instructions is at an advanced stage and is expected to be finalised during the summer recess.

Mr. J. Bruton: Will it be published?

The Taoiseach: Yes, for the first time ever.

Ministers and Secretaries Group.

6. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings held to date in 1998 of the Ministers and Secretaries Group; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14423/98]

The Taoiseach: The Ministers and Secretaries General Group on EU Policy has met three times since the beginning of the year. As part of its general supervisory role in relation to EU policy the group is responsible for co-ordinating the Irish approach to the key European issues including enlargement, institutional reform and the Agenda 2000 negotiations. Interdepartmental structures including the senior officials group chaired by my Department and groups on Agenda 2000 and on enlargement chaired by the Department of Foreign Affairs, report to it.

Mr. J. Bruton: What is the position in regard to Agenda 2000? Will any particular institutional arrangement be put in place to prepare the Government's negotiating position?

The Taoiseach: The interdepartmental group on Agenda 2000 meets monthly. The role of that group, which is chaired by the Department of Foreign Affairs, is to consider the overall strategy to the Agenda 2000 negotiations and to report to the Ministers and Secretaries Group. It takes account of all developments at any Council meetings that take place during the month. The key Departments with responsibility for Agenda 2000, which include my Department, are represented on that group. Much of the co-ordination between the Departments concerned takes place on a day to day informal basis but as we get into the detailed discussions towards the latter half of September, the importance of this group will grow. Most of the studies and the examinations for the various negotiating positions have been finalised by the different Departments.

Mr. J. Bruton: Does the Taoiseach believe that the target date of March for the conclusion of the Agenda 2000 negotiations is realistic? Does he consider it is politically judicious to aim to conclude negotiations of this sensitivity within two months of the European elections, given that the Parliament has to sign off on any deal and is probably less likely to be in a statement-like mood within two months of the European elections than at any other time in its life?

The Taoiseach: It is questionable whether the negotiations can be concluded by that time. The European Council is determined that it be completed. Chancellor Kohl has laid out a programme in conjunction with the Commission and in co-operation with Chancellor Klima that will ensure the negotiations are concluded by the March deadline. Certainly that is the intention. It is hoped that between September and the Vienna Council, which will take place in early December, they will have moved to the stage of taking final decisions on Agenda 2000. Most of the homework and the analysis will be done. In the first three months of the German Presidency it is intended that it will be all wrapped up. That is Chancellor Kohl's intention at this stage. It depends on what happens later in the year. As Deputy Bruton is aware, when the Commission works to a timetable it normally meets it or thereabout. The European Council, the Commission and the Parliament are anxious that this Parliament conclude on these matters and that they are not left over. The view is that if they cannot complete it in 1999, it will drift into 2000. Since we are talking about the financial perspective that starts on 1 January 2000 they should not bring proposals into a Parliament for 2000. That makes sense and that is the programme we are working to at this stage.

Mr. J. Bruton: December would be more realistic than March.

Mr. Quinn: In view of the absolute necessity to complete this work before the termination of office of this Parliament and of the Commission, the March deadline has a certain degree of political logic attached to it, although there are the risks to which Deputy Bruton has referred. From the point of view of maximising Ireland's national interest and the fact that the Taoiseach said in his reply that this group will be finalising its negotiating position in the second half of September, will the Taoiseach bring forward the proposals, in whatever is considered an appropriate form for discussion in this House, in order that the Oireachtas can have a clear voice and input into the negotiating position of the Government between October and March of next year?

Mr. Quinn: I am not asking the Taoiseach to weaken the hand of the Government by showing it too extensively. What I am offering is the contrary. Will the Taoiseach agree that, if there were a comprehensive debate in the House on Agenda 2000, especially on the sensitive area of agriculture and the reform of CAP, and if all the participating social partners affected by the consequences of Agenda 2000 were allowed to contribute to it in a democratic and open way, it would strengthen the hand of Irish negotiators?

The Taoiseach: I have no difficulty with having a debate in the House on the issue. Agenda 2000, like previous rounds, is very important and the Common Agricultural Policy will be dramatically affected, although no one knows what that will entail. I readily agree to a debate on it in the House as it would be of benefit.

Mr. G. Mitchell: Have the Ministers and Secretaries Group considered the Schengen agreement given the Cardiff Summit statement that progress is being made for Norwegian and Icelandic citizens, who are not citizens of the European Union, to have greater ease of access to the European Union than Irish citizens when the Schengen agreement is incorporated in the treaty? While this is not a problem of the Taoiseach's making, I point out the necessity for him to try to find some way to allow Irish citizens to travel within the European Union without having to show a passport. There would be great resentment among Irish citizens that people from Iceland and Norway, who are outside the Union, will not have to show a passport while they will. I urge the Taoiseach to have the Ministers and Secretaries Group continue to examine this. It may be possible to obtain a concession allowing Irish citizens to travel by showing, for example, a driving licence or a similar identity document. It is something about which we should be concerned.

The Taoiseach: This issue has been discussed and the difficulties outlined by Deputy Mitchell are correct. I note what he said.

Mr. J. Bruton: Could the Taoiseach have a word with the British Prime Minister about it?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy knows the difficulties with that from his time in Government.

Mr. J. Bruton: There is a different Prime Minister now.

Civic Honours List.

7. Mr. Finucane asked the Taoiseach if he will consider a civic honours list to acknowledge people who have made a major contribution to society. [15156/98]

The Taoiseach: Currently there are a number of honours which can be bestowed on individuals by educational and cultural institutions, local authorities and Government Departments and agencies. The issue of a State honours system has been mooted many times in the past but there has never been all-party support to sustain its development from a fledgling idea to an actual system of honours.

As we enter the 21st century it is now appropriate to examine the issue and to show our maturity by possibly putting in place for the millennium a system to properly honour those in society who have made a fundamental contribution and not to leave it to other countries and organisations to do it for us.

However, the overriding concern must be that this be done on a non-party political basis and I intend to write to party leaders in the House asking for their views on how we should proceed. If there is support for the idea across a majority of parties, I would then be happy to examine the matter in greater detail.

Mr. Finucane: I welcome the Taoiseach's reply. It never struck me more forcefully than when Limerick County Council made a presentation to Dr. Ed Walsh, a colossus on the education stage, that there should be a national recognition system to honour the great contribution people like him have made to society. I tabled the question for that reason although it was raised before. I am pleased with the Taoiseach's response that it is being considered.

The Taoiseach: I will write shortly to party leaders and I ask them to consider it. I understand the difficulties having read extensively from the file on the subject. This has been debated for 68 years; the first memorandum is dated July 1930. The issue dates all the way back through various Taoisigh to the days of the Executive Council.

It is a pity we do not have a system. Many Irish people are now the beneficiaries of honours of one kind or another in other jurisdictions, yet we have no adequate means of recognising them here. There are the Gaisce presidential awards which perform a useful function in a specific area, but they do not relate to the question tabled by the Deputy. I would like to make another attempt. Deputy John Bruton has been positive about it in the past but I do not know the Labour Party's view. It is worth examining to see if we can devise something.

Mr. G. Mitchell: As the former Lord Mayor of Dublin, the Taoiseach will be aware that granting the freedom of the city requires consensus and keeping the number of awards small and that that is what makes it a success and acceptable. Does he agree that, if there is to be a national honours system, the same two criteria should apply - that there should be consensus across the political divide and it should be kept to a small number of persons - to make it respected and worthy? He is aware that granting the freedom of the city of Dublin is something which is handled with delicacy and only given on rare occasions. A similar approach needs to be adopted with the honours system and I hope the Taoiseach agrees with that sentiment.

The Taoiseach: I have no difficulty with how narrow the system should be but it seems there are many who do a great deal of work for the country, be they officials, sports people or people involved in agricultural, business or cultural activities.

Having read the file from a historical perspective to see what happened on previous occasions, the honours system was always compared with one in another jurisdiction. On at least six occasions when it was examined between 1930 and 1960, Taoisigh said it sounded like a good idea and that the analysis was excellent but that it was the wrong time to introduce it. Each time they were looking at the honours system of another jurisdiction and that is why they avoided it, and this included five former Taoisigh.

Without pre-empting anything, we should attempt to find an Irish system which would reflect the unique nature of our society. If that can be done collectively, a good system could be introduced which would recognise the contribution of people over the years.

Mr. J. Bruton: The Order of St. Patrick.

Mr. Quinn: I welcome what the Taoiseach said and I await his letter. To facilitate its drafting, I inform him that the Labour Party is opposed to anything remotely close to the British honours system which is royal and monarchical and an extension of the court of privilege and patronage. If the Taoiseach is thinking of an Oireachtas system of honours along the lines of the system of allocation and decision making which prevails in Dublin City Council of which he was and Deputy Mitchell and I are members, I would be open to its consideration. We are strongly of the republican tradition that there be no scent or sense of it being conveyed on a family. As the Taoiseach will know from having read the file, opposition to an honours system in the past arose out of the sense that it conveyed some kind of quasi-aristocratic benediction on the recipient. However, we have now come of age and can examine it with the self-confidence of the time. I await the letter from the Taoiseach which I trust will be in tune with what I have articulated.

The Taoiseach: I thank Deputy Quinn for his remarks. Needless to say, I would not endorse any system similar to what he said he would oppose.

Mr. G. Mitchell: The Earl of Drumcondra.

The Taoiseach: However, I still believe we should examine some system of reward. Many republics have honours systems, some of which fall within the confines of what he outlined and others which do not. If we make an effort, it must be possible for us to find a system which has a unique Irish flavour to it, despite the fact that 68 years and ten attempts have failed to achieve that result.

Tourism Report.

8. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he has studied the recommendations of the recently published document by the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation entitled A Strategy for Growth Beyond 2000; and if he will make a statement on his key proposals. [15450/98]

The ITIC study provides an industry perspective on the continued development of tourism and is particularly timely in the context of future EU Structural Funding. The study highlights the potential for further growth in Irish tourism, based on an examination of global markets, changes in consumer preferences etc. It makes recommendations inter alia regarding future funding requirements, training and institutional arrangements.

Bord Fáilte has been preparing a draft business plan for tourism marketing, 1998-2003, which will be published in the near future. Obviously, given the different perspectives involved, there are differences in emphasis in the planning documents prepared by my Department, ITIC and Bord Fáilte which will have to be teased out in the coming weeks. However, a common thread running through all three documents is the need to maintain high investment levels in the key areas of product development, marketing and training if the industry is to sustain its momentum.

The overall objective of the current consultation process is to develop a shared vision for the development of tourism into the new millennium. Over the coming weeks, discussions will focus on key issues, including those emerging from the aforementioned documents, such as funding arrangements post-1999, destination marketing, training and institutional arrangements. The discussions will make a significant contribution to the creation of a clear vision for the future of Irish tourism which will inform my Department's input in the autumn into the preparations by the Department of Finance of a new national development plan.

Mr. Allen: I also welcome the publication of A Strategy for Growth Beyond 2000. Does the Minister agree that the key issues facing tourism are imbalance in regional growth, access to the regions, manpower problems and funding future developments? How does the Minister propose to deal with the future financial investment in tourism? Does he believe that Bord Fáilte is equipped to deal with these challenges and issues which are the responsibility of a number of Departments? Has he discussed the document with Bord Fáilte? Has he met the board since the publication of the document and discussed his and the board's response to a document which sets out major challenges for Government and Bord Fáilte?

Dr. McDaid: The three parties involved are Bord Fáilte, the Department and the industry. These parties have been in continuous contact since the publication of their respective strategies. I have a strategy document which has not yet been published but which is being discussed in the industry. Bord Fáilte is the facilitator between the industry and the consumer. It is a public service management board which must try to effectively manage the relationship between the different interdependent and independent areas which comprise the industry. I would like to see the day when we could implement the excellent AD Little report in full. I am moving towards that objective. I would like the industry to take more control of tourism. If the industry is prepared to contribute economically and in an advisory capacity and carry its share of the burden, I am prepared to offload to it many of the policy making responsibilities.

I will answer questions on future investment in tourism. The industry has to be more conscious of the fact that after 1999 there will be a diminution in the funding available. We have to ensure that we do not take our foot off the pedal. From that point of view I maintain that all sectors of the industry -traveller, tailor, soldier, sailor, doctor, sergeant, candlestick maker, are benefiting from tourism. If there are 7,000,000 in the country then one is bound to be able to achieve this. If enough people are interested the industry itself should come forward.

An Ceann Comhairle: We must proceed to the next question.

Mr. Allen: I got only one short question in - the Minister seemed to take up all the time. May I ask the Minister one short question?

An Ceann Comhairle: No, Deputy, we are moving to Question No. 9.

Swimming Inquiry.

9. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he has received a response from the Irish Amateur Swimming Association arising from the report from the Murphy inquiry into child abuse in swimming; the discussions, if any, he has had with the association regarding the contents of the report and the future funding of that organisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15470/98]

10. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the specific proposals, if any, his Department has to deal with the recommendations contained in report of the inquiry into alleged sex abuse in swimming that are relevant to his Department. [15451/98]

Dr. McDaid: I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 10 together.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister will have four minutes for each initial reply and there will be eight minutes for Deputies Allen and Ferris to ask supplementary questions.

Dr. McDaid: The Irish Amateur Swimming Association (IASA) was given a copy of the report of the Murphy inquiry on 17 June 1998 and was requested to give it urgent and immediate consideration. I have had no discussions since with the association which provided me with its executive council's initial response on Monday, 22 June. This response includes the executive council's proposed strategy for implementation of the report's recommendations. I have indicated in my subsequent reply to the association that I shall consider the issue of funding as soon as it has completed its proposed consultations with its wider membership who must be satisfied as to the adequacy of procedures and arrangements in place in their organisation to secure a safe environment for their younger members.

The vast bulk of the recommendations in the report relate to the Irish Amateur Swimming Association. The only recommendation of specific relevance to my Department concerns the issue of public funding. The inquiry report recommends that increased public funding be allocated through the Sports Council to the association for necessary reorganisation and training. In any future consideration of funding, I shall be taking on board Dr. Murphy's recommendation and seeking reprioritisation by the association of its expenditure in favour of reorganisation and training as proposed in the inquiry's report.

Although the report makes no specific reference to the Code of Ethics and Good Practice for Children's Sport in Ireland, I have written to Dr. Breda McLeavey, Chairperson of the expert committee which drew up the code, and asked her to reconvene the committee to review its contents in the light of the report.

Finally, the Sports Council, in conjunction with the National Coaching and Training Centre, has begun planning a seminar for later this year for the national governing bodies of sport. The purpose is to ensure the widest dissemination among sports organisations of the inquiry's recommendations; the outcome of the review of the code of ethics; the findings of the Oireachtas Joint Committee and, most of all, to once again underline the importance of ensuring the protection of their younger members.

Mr. Ferris: I welcome the Minister's reaffirmation of this point which is in line with what was discussed at the committee. I am sure the Minister is aware the Irish Amateur Swimming Association has stated publicly it intends to implement all the recommendations of the report. I am disappointed that because of its current structure it will be some time before it can give a response that will satisfy the Minister or the public. In the interim, will the Minister consider setting up contingency plans to fund élite swimmers about whom we are all concerned? Does he consider the Sports Council is the appropriate vehicle through which to fund those swimmers, pending a proper response from the IASA?

Mr. Allen: I am also disturbed that while the Minister is waiting for proposals from the Irish Amateur Swimming Association our prominent athletes are suffering because of a lack of funding to prepare for international events. Will he explain why, in a year when there is such controversy about the IASA , he decided to bring the Irish Schools Swimming Association under the umbrella of the IASA and thereby deprive it of funding. The Irish Schools Swimming Association has a separate structure and officers and up to now was funded separately. The Minister has lumped it in with the IASA at a time when there is a major question mark over that body. Will he immediately reverse that silly decision and grant funding to the Irish Schools Swimming Association which had no hand, act or part in the current tragic controversy?

Mr. McDaid: Funding will not be provided for any swimming association until there has been a root and branch change within the organisation. It is not enough for an executive council of the IASA to tick off the recommendations in the Murphy Report one by one and think the job is done. There is a tremendous future for swimming. The Government has given a commitment to provide a 50 metre pool and more money is available for swimming. As I stated previously, organisations are made up of individual members. There is no point in the IASA telling me one group is thinking of setting up with another organisation, that another group is already in place and making recommendations to me and that others have left the association. I want a single body dealing with the sport of swimming.

Mr. Allen: The Minister does not know the facts. The Irish Schools Swimming Association is a separate body and he has forced it under the umbrella of the IASA.

Dr. McDaid: The Government and the Department will fund only one credible organisation that will administer the sport and be answerable to FINA.

In the past most funding was spent on élite athletes competing in international competitions and that is where most of the abuse took place. The Deputy said that young athletes are suffering. I recently heard a recording on an answering machine in the IASA which stated that it was not able to man the telephone because the Minister would not give it funding.

Mr. Allen: The Minister is mixing up the organisations.

Dr. McDaid: Of course I care about young people involved in swimming, but the money previously given to the organisation was misused and I will not reconsider funding until confidence has been restored in the association.

Mr. Ferris: The public is also of that frame of mind, but I asked the Minister to consider putting in place a structure pending the tidying up of the association. There are decent people in the IASA, including the director of swimming who has outlined to me the structure he hopes to put in place. Will the Minister use his ingenuity and set up contingency plans to assist those whom he believes should be assisted? These people are currently cut off because the IASA was the only body through which funding from the Minister's Department could be channelled to swimmers. Members of the public want swimming assisted, but they also want to ensure the safety of children who get involved in the sport.

Mr. Allen: Does the Minister agree the Irish Schools Swimming Association is separate from the Irish Amateur Swimming Association? Does he agree it has a separate constitution and officers and that it organises swimming at primary and secondary school level. How could he logically lump the two organisations together when there is a question mark over the IASA? Will he reconsider that shortsighted and foolish decision and restore funding to the Irish Schools Swimming Association so it can organise its programmes for next September? Why did the Minister force those organisations together in a year of controversy over the IASA?

Dr. McDaid: In reply to Deputy Ferris, I am anxious to bring together those involved, but this has been blown out of all proportion. I understand the IASA will contact its branch members in July and that we will probably have a degree of unanimity by September. However, when confidence has been restored in the association, I will not hesitate to provide funding retrospectively. The members who left for personal reasons, those who have been expelled and the honest decent members must come forward with their proposals so that we can restore confidence in the organisation. Until that happens, I will not be moved on this issue. The organisation must be all-inclusive. I do not want separate groups developing in the organisation. Separate groups will not be funded; the organisation must be united.

I have already answered Deputy Allen in regard to the Irish Schools Swimming Association. It was decided that it would be better for swimming in schools if that organisation were funded from within the swimming association. This is the way it will be done in the future. From my reading of the Murphy report the schools were getting very little funding.

Mr. Allen: The Minister's response is illogical. He has forced the Irish Schools Swimming Association under the umbrella of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association in a year of major controversy over that organisation. He has very poor judgment.

National Conference Centre.

11. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation when he will be in a position to make a decision on the national conference centre; and whether the expert evaluators have yet reported to Bord Fáilte on the matter. [15453/98]

Dr. McDaid: As I announced on Monday evening, 22 June, I have been informed by the chairman of the independent management board for product development of his board's decision to award a grant of approximately £25 million under the Operational Programme for Tourism, 1994-9, to the tender submitted by Spencer Dock International Convention Centre Ltd., for the development of a national conference centre at Spencer Dock adjacent to Dublin's International Financial Services Centre. The board's decision followed the submission by Bord Fáilte of the report of the team of expert evaluators which examined each of the five tenders. The total estimated cost of the conference centre being proposed is in the region of £80 million.

I am pleased that a tender was selected following the competition run by Bord Fáilte on behalf of the management board. The decision of the management board is subject to Government and EU agreement on foot of a cost benefit analysis which has been commissioned and is under way.

I pay tribute to the chairman, Mr. Malachy Stephens, and the board for successfully bringing the process to this stage, having regard to the requirement of the Commission that a sufficient level of progress be achieved to ensure the project can be completed under the current round of Structural Funds.

This flagship project is seen by Government as an extremely important addition to our tourism infrastructure. It will further enhance the tourism industry's efforts to exploit the full potential of the international conference market. It is estimated that the new centre when developed could generate an additional £30 million per annum in foreign tourism revenue, much of it outside the high season which is a matter of great significance.

Mr. Allen: I welcome the decision announced by the Minister on Monday subsequent to this question being tabled on Thursday. Is he happy the schedule set out will be met in order that the Structural Funds can be drawn down before the deadline? In view of the figures he gave regarding business which will be generated mainly in the Dublin area, will he consider setting up regional convention centres to tap into the vast potential which exists in relation to international conferences? Will he develop this policy as a means of redressing the imbalance in the growth of tourism on the east coast as against the patchy growth in the rest of the country?

Dr. McDaid: An answer to a later question deals with the last two questions raised by the Deputy regarding the regional imbalance. In the context of the schedule, we are ahead of the EU deadline. There is a CSF monitoring committee meeting on Thursday. This time we have dotted the "i"s and crossed the "t"s. I admit that past experience, including that of Deputy Kenny and his predecessor, has been of benefit. I thank the product management board and its chairman, Mr. Malachy Stephens, who have been dealing with the matter over the full period. Many other management boards would have given up the ghost a long time ago but this board persisted. We had difficulties but I am delighted we have an excellent project and hope it will benefit not only Dublin people, but people nationally.

Construction will involve up to 1,000 jobs. Part of the remit of the docklands development authority is that a certain percentage of the jobs must be from the local area. The project will be a catalyst to the development of the docklands area. It will bring high incentive tourism business to Dublin and prove an incentive for the entire country.

INTERREG Funding.

12. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if he will consider allocating a portion of the additional £2 million from the INTERREG II community initiatives fund towards funding community driven projects in Border counties, particularly given that the Bord Fáilte projects fund has no money. [15459/98]

Dr. McDaid: The Minister for Finance has overall responsibility for the Northern Ireland-Ireland INTERREG programme. However, I understand the monitoring committee for the Northern Ireland-Ireland INTERREG programme yesterday approved an additional allocation of 0.6 million ecu, approximately £480,000, for the tourism measure as part of a number of financial reallocations within the INTERREG programme. These financial reallocations are subject to a formal EU Commission decision before funds can flow. This will be a welcome boost for the tourism measure as the bulk of the funding originally made available in 1994 for Bord Fáilte assessed tourism projects has been allocated. I hope the additional funds will attract a mix of community and private sector based tourism projects in line with the objectives of the programme.

It is open to any community group to make an application through the Department of Finance for INTERREG funding. However, the level of demand for grant assistance to date has been such that only the very strongest projects have received support. Furthermore, the European Commission has reminded all working groups under the programme of the need to have a clear and strong cross-Border dimension in projects to be funded from these additional resources.

Mr. Perry: Peace is imminent, something which is very welcome. While welcoming the £408,000, it is insufficient owing to the number of programmes which have been activated. Will the Minister state how community initiatives can grow with such development, given that he indicated in his reply that only projects supported by Bord Fáilte and which carry significant weight will be successful? There are a huge number of projects throughout the Border counties which would definitely be beneficial in the context of tourism growth. We have had 30 years of violence and £408,000 is only a pittance. We need £4 million, given the number of projects brought to my attention. Will the Minister seriously examine increasing the funding from Bord Fáilte or other sources?

Regarding the role of the Department of Finance, Bord Fáilte is the governing body for tourism and should have a major say in the allocation of funding, particularly in the context of Border counties during this very important time of tourism growth.

Dr. McDaid: I could not agree more with the sentiments expressed by the Deputy. An amount of £2 million had to be reallocated and we received 25 per cent of it. I would have gladly accept the entire amount. In the context of this week's vote in Northern Ireland and the peace process, the Border region has potential in the tourism area which never previously existed.

In the past some people have not been shy about coming forward. For example, of the £13.6 million which was previously allocated, £10 million was received on the southern side of the Border. At that time projects to a cost of £40 million were submitted. This is a usual situation. Twenty-four capital product projects were approved and 18 marketing projects were approved, giving a total of 42 projects. However, 140 projects sought funding. Unfortunately, the money is not available, but I take the Deputy's views on board, namely, that any extra funding would be gratefully accepted.

Mr. Perry: The British Government has invested £150 million in Northern Ireland for the promotion of all aspects of peace. In this context the provision of £70,000 per county is insignificant. In County Sligo there are two major projects, one concerning a surfing centre in Strandhill where there was a recent tragedy and another concerning a field study centre in Sligo. I ask the Minister to appeal to the Minister for Finance to provide a greater allocation.

Dr. McDaid: We are exceptionally grateful to the EU, the UK, the US and other countries which have continued to support Ireland. In spite of the breakdown of the ceasefire in 1995, the EU continued to support us. The future is particularly bright, especially in regard to tourism.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That concludes priority questions.

Euro Changeover.

13. Mr. Sheehan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the plans, if any, he has to make grant aid available to hotels and guesthouses towards the cost of conversion to the euro. [15149/98]

Dr. McDaid: The Department of Finance is the Department with overall responsibility for co-ordinating Ireland's preparations for the changeover to the euro, encompassing preparations by the Irish public administration and helping the rest of the economy to prepare itself for the changeover.

A number of initiatives in connection with the changeover have already been put in place, including: the establishment of the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland, ECBI, on 5 May this year, to oversee the detailed implementation of the changeover and to provide public and consumer information; the launch of an £800,000 national information programme run by the ECBI, designed in phases to provide information on the changeover to euro as the single currency project proceeds; the making available by the ECBI of a sum of £200,000 to assist non-governmental organisations meet the cost of approved activities to promote awareness of the euro among the public; and, a special business awareness campaign run by Forfás at a cost of £400,000 which aims to provide businesses with the information they need to prepare themselves for EMU and the changeover to euro.

While funding has been made available for an awareness campaign to inform business and the public of what is involved in the euro changeover, the Government, in line with the intentions of the other ten countries in the euro 11, has no plan to provide special help for businesses generally to make the changeover. It should be borne in mind in this context that EMU should bring significant benefits to businesses. Interest rates should, in general, be lower within EMU than if Ireland were not a member. Exchange rate uncertainty will be eliminated for trade, tourism and investment among the member states participating in EMU. Furthermore, the single currency will mean the need for currency conversion will no longer arise within the euro area. These benefits will be ongoing while, of their nature, changeover costs will be once-off.

Mr. Sheehan: I am somewhat disappointed with the Minister's reply. Hotels and guesthouses are very vulnerable particularly given the nature of Irish tourism and climatic conditions. Many family run hotels are barely ticking over and the changeover to the euro will entail a good deal of expenditure on their behalf. Surely there is some avenue the Minister could explore which would provide funding towards this beleaguered sector of the tourism industry. The sector is already in competition with seaside resort and urban renewal schemes and is receiving no assistance whatsoever. If assistance is not provided, small hotels and guesthouses will find it almost impossible to carry on. The euro changeover will be the straw which will break the camel's back. Small hotels and guesthouses are the backbone of the industry and it is a dismal reflection on the Minister if he cannot provide assistance to them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a statement, not asking a question.

Dr. McDaid: On whether the Government will provide assistance in this area, the answer is a categorical no. If people go into business, they must be prepared to pay the price. The Deputy's question is akin to saying that if the price of bed linen were extraordinarily expensive in one area in comparison with another, the Government should step in to subsidise costs. That is not what is involved in business.

I disagree with the Deputy that the changeover will entail phenomenal costs; it will not. The tourism sector is the one area which will benefit from the euro changeover for the reasons I have outlined.

Mr. Sheehan: It seems to be a case of "live horse and you'll get grass".

Mr. Allen: In the context of the Minister's response and his earlier response to the strategy report, how does he intend to fund the development of tourism post 1999? He stated he was present at the launch of the report but that it failed to address possible sources of funding.

Will the Minister avail of this opportunity to scotch a rumour in the industry that one of his advisers is advocating the imposition of a bed tax? Will he put that rumour to bed once and for all and state he is not in favour of a bed tax for the hotel sector to fund the future development of the industry?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy has moved far away from the content of Deputy Sheehan's question.

Dr. McDaid: The employment of consultants was discussed earlier. While I acknowledged the consultants' report was a very good one, it failed to address the question of who would pay. An estimated £740 million will be required to run the tourism industry in the next six years and certain limitations will be imposed after 1999.

I want more private sector involvement in the funding of the tourism industry. The industry is developing rapidly and we cannot afford to decelerate it. This matter, together with the issue of bed tax, will be discussed in conjunction with the industry, the unions, the Department and Bord Fáilte. A document is currently in circulation within the industry and I am awaiting reaction to that. I am confident that, given the recent success of the industry, a positive conclusion will be reached.

Mr. Allen: So the Minister is not ruling out the idea of a bed tax?

Dr. McDaid: That is a matter for discussion.

Mr. Allen: That is very disturbing.

Tourist Victim Support Service.

14. Ms McManus asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the financial support, if any, his Department provides for the tourist victim support service; if his attention has been drawn to the call from the service for greater support from tourism and commercial interests; if he will encourage this support ; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15145/98]

Dr. McDaid: Bord Fáilte, out of moneys provided from my Vote, and Dublin Tourism, is providing a total of £15,000 this year to the tourist victim support service, TVSS, which represents almost 50 per cent of its income.

I am aware the TVSS has recently called again on private sector tourism interests to make a much more substantial financial contribution to it. With a very few notable exceptions, that contribution has been negligible up to now and, earlier this year, in a formal message of support, I urged the broad tourism industry to provide a worthwhile level of financial assistance. I understand that Bord Fáilte also independently undertook a campaign to elicit more funding from the industry.

As on previous occasions, I applaud the TVSS for its very valuable work, which it undertakes with substantial voluntary effort. It is high time the industry came forward with an appropriate level of assistance, especially in the context of the present tourism boom.

Ms McManus: Does the Minister accept it is a very serious feature of Irish tourism that a service such as the TVSS even exists? If our image as a friendly, hospitable nation is not to be seriously damaged, we must ensure that, as far as possible, tourists are safe but that if they are subjected to criminal activity of any kind, they will be fully supported. Does the Minister accept that regardless of what he has done until now, his pleas to the commercial sector have simply not worked? At a point when the TVSS is experiencing a serious shortfall, will the Minister clearly state his intention to put some muscle behind his statements? He will bring his own reputation into a certain amount of disrepute if he cannot ensure statements he makes elicit a positive response from the commercial sector.

Dr. McDaid: One would naturally wish to appeal to the private sector to come forward in the first instance but I assure the Deputy I will exert some pressure on them to do so. However, I cannot force people to pay up. I agree with what the Deputy said about this area. Last year this group approached me and I increased our contribution to it from £10,000 to £15,000. That increased contribution will be made this year.

Lest the impression go out from this House that tourists are not safe here I will outline a few statistics to clarify the position. Ireland is still a safe tourist destination and rates very well by any international comparison. That was borne out in a survey carried out for Which magazine which shows that Ireland has the fourth lowest level of theft rate of the 44 countries surveyed and only 0.6 per cent of those who took part in the survey reported being victims of theft. The level of crime must be seen in the context of the growth of tourism. Official figures for 1996 show there was a total of 4,024 crimes against tourists, but that figure represents less than 0.1 per cent of total tourist numbers. That figure includes petty crime, theft from parked cars, etc., and there were only 43 cases of tourists who sustained personal injuries. Only 13 per cent of referrals to the TVSS were mugging type cases and the largest category, more than 50 per cent, involved pick-pocketing. Unfortunately, 89 per cent of crime against tourists occurs in Dublin and much of it is drug related and part of the overall crime problem, while the rest of the country is relatively trouble free. I would not like the impression to go from this House that we need to allocate a good deal of money to aid this group, although more money needs to be allocated to it. This country is an exceptionally safe, crime free area as regards the tourism industry.

Ms McManus: We should try to ensure this country is as crime free as possible, but there are still some victims in the area. As the Minister knows, there is a shortfall in the funding for this voluntary organisation which is doing extremely good work. The Minister said he would use his muscle and he is in a position to use it in regard to the commercial sector which is making a fortune out of tourism. Will he outline precisely what he intends to do to go that step beyond appealing to the better nature of the commercial sector? What muscle does he intend to use to ensure that the tourist victim support organisation can continue to provide an invaluable service and, sadly, one we will have to ensure is provided for the future, regardless of the level of crime rate in this area. I accept the crime level in this area is relatively low, but it is a serious matter for tourists. We should not disregard the personal hurt, damage and distress caused to people who are subject to criminal attack when visiting another country.

Dr. McDaid: I do not want to compel anybody to do anything. These issues are being discussed with the private tourism sector. We may feel compelled to deal with some issues and that is how I am approaching this matter.

The victim support group was set up in 1994 and direct financial aid is not given to victims although benefit in kind is provided. We can be proud that the tourist victim support group exists and in Europe it is recognised that we look after our tourists. However, when there is a horrible mugging of a tourist, regardless of the part of the country in which it occurs, it tends to get reported in our newspapers. That is what we must face, although there are very few crimes in this area. The crime rate in this area is very low and we are working to improve the future funding of the TVSS.

Mr. Allen: I raised a number of the problems facing the tourism industry and Deputy McManus has raised another issue that needs to be dealt with. There seems to be a lack of co-ordination----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy may ask a brief question because we have spent a good deal of time on this question.

Mr. Allen: In the context of the issues I raised and the one raised by Deputy McManus, will the Minister convene a national forum on tourism to deal with these important issues that must be faced up to and on which decisions must be made sooner rather than later? We have a projected growth rate of 9 per cent which cannot be sustained unless we deal with these issues facing the industry.

Dr. McDaid: I have no intention of setting up any further quangos.

Mr. Allen: I am not talking about establishing quangos but a consultative council.

Dr. McDaid: According to the report I received from ITIC there are 22 organisations involved in tourism. We should try to get rid of some of them rather than set up more.

Mr. Allen: The Minister should not misrepresent what I said. I propose that a forum be held over two or three days at which these issues could be discussed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. The Chair is on its feet. I call Question No. 15.

Mr. Allen: I do not want the Minister to misrepresent my views. He should not be so smart.

URBAN Operational Programme.

15. Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the situation in relation to the allocation of funding under the URBAN Operational Programme. [15190/98]

16. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the situation in relation to the allocation of funding under the URBAN Operational Programme. [15186/98]

21. Mr. L. Burke asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the situation in relation to the allocation of funding under the URBAN Operational Programme. [15187/98]

22. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if the mid-term review of the URBAN Operational Programme has been completed; if the report will be published; the steps, if any, he is taking to expedite the drawdown of funds approved by the previous Government for areas under the URBAN programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15141/98]

24. Mr. Bradford asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the situation in relation to the allocation of funding under the URBAN Operational Programme. [15189/98]

32. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if the mid-term review of the URBAN Operational Programme has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15034/98]

40. Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the progress, if any, made on the URBAN II project; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15151/98]

53. Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the situation in relation to the allocation of funding under the URBAN Operational Programme. [15188/98]

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Mr. Flood): I propose to take Questions Nos. I5, 16, 21, 22, 24, 32, 40 and 53 together. Following a tender process, a mid-term evaluation of the URBAN Operational Programme was commissioned by the programme's monitoring committee on 30 April 1998. A draft evaluation has been recently submitted to my Department, as lead Department for the programme. This draft is being examined to ensure that it meets the terms of reference following which it will be considered by the monitoring committee for the programme which will report, with recommendations if appropriate, to the CSF Monitoring Committee. This will complete the mid-term review process. Once the programme's monitoring committee has completed its consideration of the evaluation, which is likely to be at its autumn meeting, the evaluation will be available through the CSF evaluation unit in the Department of Finance.

In so far as funding is concerned, approximately £10 million is being made available to the north Dublin URBAN area, which includes Ballymun, Darndale and Finglas, and £5 million each to the south Dublin URBAN area, which includes Tallaght and Clondalkin, and the north side of Cork city URBAN area. To date north Dublin has drawn down £2.2 million and south Dublin and north Cork city have drawn down £1.4 million each. Funding is drawn down on the basis of developed projects in line with strategies formulated under action plans. Once projects comply with the relevant criteria and Department of Finance approval has been obtained, there will be no delay in my Department releasing funds.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny): Will there be any provision under this programme for urban areas in rural Ireland? The Minister of State referred to provisions for Dublin and Cork. If disadvantage areas exist in Dublin, they can also exist in smaller towns.

Mr. Flood: This programme relates to urban areas, essentially those I outlined which have particular difficulties. It was established in 1996 on the basis of particular criteria and will run to 1999, but what will be in place thereafter is another issue. Other programmes cover rural areas. I am involved in the partnership area and there are a number of partnerships spread across the country, other specialist organisations and national groups, as well as the Leader group, for which my ministerial colleague, Deputy Davern is responsible. There are other groups which seek to tackle deprivation and other neglected rural areas, but this programme applies only to the areas to which I referred. There have not been any changes to expand the areas covered by it. It is another matter as to whether a case could be made for expanding it post-1999.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny): When I mentioned rural urban areas I was referring to towns around the country. Is it the case that only Dublin and Cork are covered by the scheme?

Mr. Flood: Yes.

Mr. Allen: This programme was introduced by the former Minister of State, Deputy Gay Mitchell. Is the current Minister of State, Deputy Flood, concerned that two years after the establishment of the programme little money has been drawn down? Is he further concerned that the cost of projects proposed in different areas might now have escalated due to increased building costs? Many of the objectives and plans are being smothered by bureaucracy and red tape. The figures presented by the Minister of State show-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question, please.

Mr. Allen: -----that there is a smothering of the ambitions of organisations in deprived areas. A sum of £1.4 million has been taken up-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Allen is denying his colleagues a chance to ask a question.

Mr. Allen: I am asking the Minister of State-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a statement. I have asked him a number of times to make his questions brief.

Mr. Allen: When my questions were brief and to the point I received extremely long answers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is making a statement and I want to let his colleague, Deputy Perry, ask a question.

Mr. Allen: In view of the low amounts of money allocated, will the Minister of State do everything possible to ensure that credible projects in deprived areas are not smothered by bureaucracy and red tape as appears to be the case to date?

Mr. Flood: My Department, as the lead Department for this programme, is keen to ensure that resources are given to the community for which they are allocated. That is an important issue. It is a three year programme and nothing in the Department delays the drawing down of funds by the respective steering groups.

By the end of 1997, 55 per cent of the available funding was committed to specific projects. There is now a definite acceleration in drawing down further funds. Up to 11 July 1997, a total of £400,000 was drawn down by the three areas. The programme was transferred to my Department on the change of Government and from 11 July 1997 to the end of the year, £1,700,000 was drawn down. Up to June 1998, a further £2,900,000 was drawn down.

I accept that steering groups must be put in place and develop their plans. Some of the spending is allocated to projects, the development of which can involve time consuming processes such as planning permission, establishing management structures and dealing with other issues which are intrinsic to setting up a good, properly managed project. These considerations should not be seen as delaying measures but as the establishment of proper and appropriate structures to allow the appropriate moneys to be drawn down and to facilitate accountability. Capital works projects obviously take time but the draw down of funding is accelerating and there is no delay in assisting this process in the Department.

Mr. Ferris: These funds are directed to the most disadvantaged areas and I am concerned that most of the money earmarked for this project in April 1996 has not been drawn down even though the needs and disadvantage still exist. Has the level of consultation required seriously affected the implementation of some of these programmes? I accept that the Minister of State has responsibility to the Exchequer for the correct allocation of the funding but the consultation process is over-bureaucratic in an area in which there is serious social disadvantage.

Mr. Flood: It is most important that communities and other organisations involved in the work of the steering group are consulted. Previous experience shows that local communities can take the view that certain projects and services were imposed on them with little consultation. The effort to reverse that approach under the URBAN scheme is welcome. Local communities must be consulted. However, I accept the thrust of the comments by Deputies Ferris and Allen. It is important that projects or facilities promoted under the URBAN programme should be drafted as quickly as possible.

An external mid-term review is being carried out and my office received a draft report on 4 June. If lessons are to be learned from the review, which will be finalised in the autumn when it will be sent to the appropriate committee, about mechanisms to expedite the draw down of funds by the steering group, the Department will intervene and arrange for them to be put in place.

Mr. Allen: I do not seek to apportion political blame in this matter but will the Minister of State concede that the allocation of just £1.4 million to the northside of Cork City and of £1.4 million to an area of Dublin out of a total allocation of £5.4 million to each area is unacceptable and unsatisfactory? Bureaucracy and constraints must be removed to enable local groups to proceed as quickly as possible and to avoid their being affected by the escalating costs that are a reality of life. Will the Minister of State give an assurance that these barriers to progress in deprived areas will be removed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Before the Minister of State replies, I will allow a brief supplementary question from Deputy Perry.

Mr. Perry: There are also deprived areas in rural parts of the country. Will the Minister of State consider allocating some of the funds to those areas given that such a small amount has been drawn down at this stage? The trend of population growth for the year 2006 shows that we must plan ahead, particularly for larger rural centres. A rural renewal tax incentive scheme has been introduced but some of the URBAN fund might encourage people to invest in rural areas since they will be the more heavily populated areas in the not too distant future.

Mr. Flood: There is much merit in the approach advocated by Deputy Perry. However, I do not have the power to extend the boundaries of the URBAN scheme. Perhaps there will be a different situation after 1999 but, at present, I cannot interfere with the current parameters.

Deputy Allen referred to barriers. If there are such barriers I will try to remove them in so far as I have the power to so do. However, the locally based steering groups have an important role in this regard. They have the right to bring forward projects under the criteria laid down at the outset. The criteria are clear and must be adhered to.

The steering group can draw down the money on the basis of formulated action plans consistent with the objectives of the programme and develop projects which are in line with strategies outlined in the action plans. The groups must arrange for the projects to become incorporated as limited companies and sign operation agreements with the lead Department. The operation agreements have been signed so there is no delay in that case. It is up to the local steering committees and they have not given me any indication that they have a problem in this area.

Although it might appear that a small amount has been drawn down by these two areas, neither area will lose out. All the funding committed to them will be available. The figures for 1998 show a considerable acceleration in the draw down of funds and I expect that to continue. When the process is reviewed at the end of the year significant progress will probably have been made in that regard.

I accept the points made by the Deputies. If any difficulties become apparent, I will ensure they are removed.

Special Olympics World Games.

17. Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the actions, if any, he has taken since the visit of the Special Olympics bid site selection team to ensure Ireland secures this important and prestigious event; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15036/98]

Dr. McDaid: As the Deputy is aware, I have facilitated the bid by Special Olympics Ireland to host the Special Olympics World Games in 2003 by securing Government approval for grant assistance up to a maximum £5 million towards the cost of implementing the bid should it be successful. During the recent visit of the bid site selection team I hosted two important functions which gave the team an opportunity to assess the enthusiasm of the business community for the games and to be assured of the Government's support for the bid. The decision on the awarding of the games rests entirely with the board of Special Olympics International.

Mr. Ferris: I commend Special Olympics Ireland, especially given the success of last weekend's functions which highlighted the true meaning of sport. Did the bid site selection team request further information and, if so, has it been supplied? What efforts has the Minister made to secure additional private funding for this prestigious event which I hope we will be successful in attracting to Ireland in 2003?

Dr. McDaid: The Special Olympics Games will be the largest sporting event in the world in 2003 and would be the biggest international sporting event ever to be held in this country. Over 160 countries will participate in 19 sports involving 7,000 athletes and coaches who will be accompanied by 28,000 family members and friends and assisted by 30,000 volunteers. We cannot give any commitments, however, until the bid has been successful. I express my sincere thanks to Telecom Éireann, Guardian PMPA and Toyota Ireland which have pledged their support. The committee, which I have met on a number of occasions, including yesterday, has expressed concern about traffic problems, accommodation, access to swimming pool facilities and funding. I was able to reassure it that we would be able to overcome the traffic congestion problem with the help of the Garda Síochána and that progress has been made in recent months on a number of swimming pool projects. If the bid is successful, we will do everything possible to raise the necessary funding to hold this special event. Our wonderful country has acquired a reputation throughout Europe for its people and landscape. I would also like us to be ahead of the field when it comes to being disability friendly.

Mr. Ferris: May I take it that the national coaching and training centre and the top class swimming pool facilities throughout the country would be used to spread the benefits to the regions? We will do everything we can to assist the Minister in attracting this prestigious event to Ireland.

Mr. Allen: I support the Minister in his efforts to attract this event to Ireland and pay tribute to Deputy Spring who, when Minister for Foreign Affairs in the previous Administration, established the working group which has brought us to the stage where we are a leading contender along with Argentina. Is it the case that the bid site selection team highlighted two major issues, the transportation of athletes and officials and the availability of a 50-metre pool? Is the Minister satisfied that we will be able to overcome these problems and will be successful in attracting this event to Ireland? I had the privilege to attend the event when it was held in Connecticut. It was a memorable occasion. When will a decision be made on a 50-metre pool?

Dr. McDaid: The main events, with perhaps the exception of swimming, would be held in and around Dublin. Athletes prefer to be based in one location. Belfast was mentioned but this would entail a journey of 45 minutes. This would create difficulties. Some 160 towns and villages would, however, be given an opportunity to play host to the athletes of a particular country in the week preceding the games. In this way the benefits would be spread throughout the country. As Deputy Allen said, Ireland and Argentina are the two countries vying for the games.

The bid site selection team highlighted the transportation issue. In response I indicated the exceptionally successful measures which we have taken. For the games all that would be required is an eight lane, 25-metre pool. The Government is committed to providing a 50-metre pool in respect of which nine proposals are being considered and contact documents issued. I hope to have some news before the end of the year.