Parliamentary Debates 1998
This Web site contains the text of the Parliamentary Debates  - unrevised (excluding Parliamentary Questions) as published on daily basis in 1998. Please note that the full text of the Parliamentary Debates - revised (including questions) for 1919 --- is now available on-line at: historical-debates.oireachtas.ie. The text of the current parliamentary debates 2004 --- is available at debates.oireachtas.ie. The main Oireachtas site is www.oireachtas.ie. See also Houses' Web Sites.

Swimming Abuse Inquiry.

25. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the progress, if any, being made by the inquiry into abuse in swimming; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7389/98]

25. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the number of people who have made statements or given interviews to the independent inquiry into sexual abuse in swimming being conducted by a person (details supplied); the number who have refused to make statements or otherwise co-operate; and when the final report will be made public. [74290/98]

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid): I propose to take Question Nos. 25 and 26 together. The independent inquiry on matters relating to child sexual abuse in swimming is being carried out by Dr. Roderick Murphy, SC. Dr. Murphy, who is conducting his investigations in private, reported on 10 March on progress to date at his inquiry. He indicated that almost 50 hours of hearing has been held since his appointment on 10 February with victims, parents of victims, coaches and officials from the Irish Amateur Swimming Association and its Leinster branch. He has also received written submissions, including a large amount of documentation from the swimming bodies, in relation to their organisation in general and to their procedures for dealing with complaints in particular. I understand Dr. Murphy will include details of the number of parties who made submissions or who gave interviews to the inquiry in his final report.

Dr. Murphy proposes to continue to hear evidence up to the end of this week. By that time he expects to have sufficient material available to him from submissions and interviews to prepare a report which addresses the matters raised in the terms of reference of the inquiry.

Dr. Murphy aims to complete his report by the end of the month and once I have received it and given it initial consideration I intend to make its findings public. However, a decision on publication of the full contents of the report cannot be made until it is received and all the implications of publication have been considered.

Will he consider lifting the financial sanctions he imposed on the IASA in the interests of catering for the athletes? The only people who have been victimised and have suffered because of these sanctions are the athletes who are being hindered in their preparations for international events. It is ironic that the only people who have suffered and who may have to pay are the athletes, who are the innocent parties.

Dr. McDaid: I will try to publish as much of the report as possible. However, the Deputy must be aware that I cannot prejudice the report. We must wait until Dr. Murphy produces it.

None of the national organisations have received their allocations for 1998; they do not receive them until the end of April. I have circulated them with a request to bring forward for consideration their strategies for 1998. They will then be paid in full. The IASA is not at any disadvantage as a result of the actions which I have taken.

It has been suggested that I am punishing the swimmers. However, this is a matter for those involved in swimming, not me. The Government will assist young people involved in swimming in every way possible and will continue to support them. The IASA receives the second or third largest allocation of any governing body. It must ensure its house is in order. I have taken action on the organisation to ensue that a safe environment exists for swimmers. When the report becomes available I will be prepared to lift the sanctions against the swimmers. However, I will not be made to lift them until such time as I am satisfied that a safe environment exists.

By the time the national organisations are due to receive funding for 1998 I will have received Dr. Murphy's report, including his conclusions. I also hope to have received the views of the IASA on the report. When it has shown how it is responding to the report I will be able to lift the sanctions.

Mr. Ferris: I welcome the Minister's comments. When the IASA attended the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation, it expressed concern about funding. There must be a retrospective procedure involved in its funding. It advised the committee it would be running out of funds in two to three months and would scale down its international programme. I hope that when the Minister receives the report he will ensure swimmers are protected, an aim shared by all Members.

The Minister indicated the number of hours Dr. Murphy has spent interviewing. Does he have any idea of the number of people who refused to give evidence? Is he aware that over the weekend two very prominent people, Michelle De Bruin and Gary O'Toole, expressed surprise that they were not asked to give evidence. These two people have already made a major contribution to swimming, but one in particular intimated many years ago that problems had arisen and no action was taken. Would the Minister not agree that Mr. O'Toole in particular should have been asked to give evidence?

Dr. McDaid: I cannot answer the Deputy's question about the number of people because this is a private inquiry. However, I am sure Dr. Murphy's report will make clear the number of people who came forward. It will not be possible to know how many did not come forward. As to the recent article on the question of people who were not asked to come forward, in mid-February we placed an advertisement in the national newspapers which constituted an open invitation to everybody concerned, including people outside swimming, to come forward and help the inquiry if they wished to do so. It was initially thought that we would have a report by 10 March. However, this work had to be carried out meticulously, and so many people came forward that it was decided to extend the time limit until the end of this week. It is still open to people to come forward up to Friday. I would encourage everybody who has information to offer to avail of this opportunity to do so.

Dr. McDaid: I will not give a guarantee until I am absolutely satisfied that swimming provides a safe environment for all who participate in it. On the question of funding, which is £230,000, the second largest sum received by any national governing body, this funding does not apply until the end of April. No national governing body will receive any funding until that date.

Mr. Allen: I am referring to the uncertainty of future funding.

Dr. McDaid: Nobody will be at a disadvantage until then. I will only consider recommending that funding for the IASA be restored when I have received assurances from them that they are implementing the recommendations of the Murphy report.

Mr. Allen: The Minister is living in a cocoon, in a fool's paradise.

Mr. Ferris: I am sure the Minister is aware that when the IASA appeared before an Oireachtas committee it stated that the code of ethics, albeit a voluntary code of ethics, was now being operated rigidly in all clubs and branches. The public in general has welcomed the fact that the IASA had the opportunity to say that definitively. On the basis that clubs are operating within the guidelines and that the safety of swimmers is protected, it is important that funding be restored. I want to be as positive as can be. I had a communication directly from the IASA to the effect that because of the uncertainty of their future they are curtailing some international events, particularly the international event in Hamburg. We want to make sure that our top class swimmers, who are innocent in all of this, are facilitated in every way possible by the Minister and his Department.

Dr. McDaid: Is it not unfortunate that it should take an incident like this to prompt everybody to take note of Deputy Allen's code of ethics, which we have all praised in the past? I will ensure that the swimming association will be able to go ahead with future competitions. I do not want to hinder it in any way. However, I will not restore funding until it is quite clear that any deficiencies are dealt with and the code of ethics is implemented. I want to restore funding to the IASA but I must await the Murphy report and the IASA's response to it. Having met officials of the IASA I am quite sure of their determination to bring their sport up to the level where it should be. I have no doubt that these dedicated officials will be able to do that and that I will be able to restore funding at an early stage.

Mr. Allen: Irrespective of whether the inquiry deems the IASA fit to distribute funding or to manage its affairs, will the Minister give a commitment that funding will be made available, through the High Performance Committee of the Sports Council or through another body, to enable our athletes who are now under a cloud of uncertainty to prepare for world class events. The present situation is unfair to them. Like the other victims, they are innocent victims in all of this. I am only trying to find a way of comforting these people by trying to ensure their efforts will not be for nought.

Dr. McDaid: The future of swimming rests with the swimming fraternity. It is up to them to convince me and others that there is a safe environment for swimmers and that the happenings of the past cannot be repeated. We should not go ahead if circumstances still exist which gave rise to abuse in the past. Nobody would want that, nor would the elite swimmers. They would be the first people not to agree to go ahead in such circumstances. They want to ensure that everything is as it should be in their sport.

Mr. Allen: That goes without saying. Everybody favours that, but this involves technicalities.

Dr. McDaid: I am confident the officials will continue to work towards that position and that the funding will be restored.

National Conference Centre.

27. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the current situation regarding the development of a national conference centre; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7390/98]

383. Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the position regarding the applicants who submitted their tenders for a national conference centre; the locations and the name of the applicants involved; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7359/98]

Dr. McDaid: I propose to take Questions Nos. 27 and 383 together.

As the Deputy is probably aware, the tender procedure for a national conference centre is being organised by Bord Fáilte under the aegis of the independent management board for product development and is being conducted in full compliance with EU Council Directive 93/37/EEC concerning the co-ordination of procedures for the award of public works contracts.

The full tender procedure notice was published in the Official Journal of the European Communities on 13 September 1997 and in the Irish media on 16 September. It invited applicants to submit requests to participate in the tender procedure by Monday, 20 October. Bord Fáilte received 12 responses within this deadline set for receipt of applications to tender. On 31 October 1997, invitation to tender documentation was dispatched by Bord Fáilte to seven qualified applicants, six of whom confirmed their intention to submit full tenders before the deadline for so doing, 14 November. The closing deadline for receipt of tenders was 5 p.m. on Monday, 2 February. Bord Fáilte received full tender submissions from five consortia and immediately commenced its assessment of the submissions. The deliberations of Bord Fáilte and the management board are continuing but they are expected to be finalised in the near future.

Under the terms of the tourism operational programme, the agreement of the Government and the EU Commission on foot of a cost benefit analysis conducted in accordance with Community law will then be required in respect of any final selection made. It is hoped the grant offer can be made to the successful candidate by mid-July who will then be able to proceed with construction plans.

A specific timetable for commencement or completion of the national conference centre project cannot be determined until the proposal has been formally approved by the Government and the European Commission and matters such as planning permission are in place. The tender procedure is being organised by Bord Fáilte and the independent management board. The board has not released details of the names of tenderers or the locations of the proposed projects.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister assure the House that he or any other member of the Government has not held separate discussions with any of the tendering parties?

Dr. McDaid: I assure the Deputy that neither I or my Department have had any discussions with any of the parties.

Mr. Allen: Have any of the Minister's colleagues had discussions?

Dr. McDaid: Neither I or any of my colleagues have had any discussions with anybody involved in the process.

Special Olympics.

28. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the progress, if any, being made in Ireland's bid to stage the Special Olympics; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7391/98]

Dr. McDaid: Following the Government's decision in November 1997 to provide grant assistance up to a maximum of £5 million towards the cost of implementing Ireland's bid for the Special Olympics world summer games in 2003, a formal bid was submitted by the organisers, Special Olympics Ireland, to the official governing body, Special Olympics International.

The Special Olympics world games bid site selection team will visit Ireland in April to assess the Irish bid. I understand a decision on the location for the 2003 games is not expected before next May.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister tell the House who is Ireland's main competitor regarding the location of the Special Olympics games? Has he had any involvement in formulating and processing the Irish bid?

Dr. McDaid: I understand one of the contenders for the location of the games is a South American country. The Deputy will be aware this is the first time the Special Olympics may be held outside the United States. It is between Ireland and another bidder at present. There will be approximately 7,000 athletes from 160 countries participating in 19 different sports. Approximately 28,000 family members and friends will also attend and it is estimated that up to 100 international media outlets could also be involved.

The Department has kept in contact with the selection committee which is a marvellous group. We met various ambassadors on its behalf and they have agreed to provide interpreters, etc. We also met heads of universities and others who could provide accommodation. They have all been positive and we hope a successful Special Olympics games could be held in Ireland if its bid is selected.

Ireland has a great reputation for its unique landscape, golf and fishing facilities, culture and traditional hospitality. With the co-operation of all those involved, I hope Ireland will be considered in Europe as a disability friendly country.

Mr. Allen: Will the Minister confirm that the other main contender for the location of the games is Argentina? Will he ensure this event, which was initiated by the previous Government, does not slip from our grasp because of inactivity at political level?

Dr. McDaid: The other country is Argentina and I thank the Deputy for reminding me. I will try to ensure that this worthy event is brought to Ireland. I ask all those involved to ensure that the large amount of sponsorship, particularly corporate sponsorship, that is needed is secured. The commitments to date amount to a little more than £1 million and corporate sponsorship in Ireland and the United States is being sought. Local sponsorship is also needed. As the Deputy is aware, it is intended to bring the representatives of each country to different towns and counties. I hope local businesses will sponsor athletes for certain amounts. I look forward to such sponsorship and knowing the Irish people, I am sure they will provide it. In common with the Deputy, I will ensure that everything possible is done to bring the Special Olympics to Ireland.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: As the time for Priority Questions has expired, Question No. 29 may be taken in ordinary time.

Tourism Figures.

29. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a decrease has occurred in traffic from a number of mainland European destinations in view of the overall growth in tourism traffic; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7393/98]

Dr. McDaid: As the Deputy will be aware from the most recent figures released by the Central Statistics Office, the total number of visitors to Ireland in 1997 is estimated to be 5,164,000, an increase of 9 per cent on the 1996 figure. I am delighted to report that 1997 was a record year for tourism with estimates for foreign exchange earnings expected to be in excess of £2 billion. We are now on target to meet and exceed the ambitious targets set out in the operational programme for tourism, 1994-9.

In 1997 there was a strong performance from a number of northern Continental European markets with the Benelux countries, Denmark and Sweden all recording good growth. However, tourist numbers from Continental Europe as a whole remained static at just under 1.2 million. The reasons were varied. For example, most mainland European countries recorded only marginal economic growth in 1997. More importantly, some major currencies, such as the deutschmark and the French franc, were at their weakest for some four to five years against the IR£. According to Bord Fáilte, this discouraged individual travel and was a deterrent to active promotion by many tour operators. The temporary cessation of year round direct ferry links may also have had some impact on shoulder and low season group traffic.

These difficulties were not unique to Ireland and were experienced also by Britain, Scandinavia and other northern "non-sun" destinations with which Ireland competes. For example, the European travel monitor, which is a standard Europe wide travel survey, shows that German traffic to all northern Europe, including Britain and Scandinavia, declined by 15 per cent in 1997 while French traffic to northern Europe was down by 11 per cent.

Nevertheless, the tourism sector shares my concern about the relative under performance of the mainland European market for Ireland in recent years given that Ireland has performed exceptionally well elsewhere and made market share gains in British, North American and Australian markets. Specifically, a full examination of the prospects for Ireland in the German market is currently being undertaken by Bord Fáilte in conjunction with its industry partners.

Mr. Allen: One expects substantial growth in tourist numbers during an economic boom and Bord Fáilte is good at putting forward a rosy picture. Does the Minister agree we should look beyond economic stagnation and currency fluctuations as the reason for tourist numbers from continental Europe remaining static? When will the 1997 visitors' attitude survey be published? My main concern is about the German and Italian markets. Does the Minister agree it is unsatisfactory that Dublin and its surrounding areas should experience double digit growth while the south west and west experienced low single digit growth?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is moving away from the question.

Mr. Allen: Most of our tourist traffic is funnelled through Dublin and as 60 per cent of European visitors are under 40 they are more attracted to the bright lights of urban areas. Will the Minister ask Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus to emphasise the attractiveness of Shannon and Cork as access points?

Dr. McDaid: I will communicate with the Deputy on the publication of the visitors' attitude survey. The reasons I outlined for the difficulties with the French and German markets are genuine. People from those countries are not travelling to northern European countries or to the UK. There has been a 10 per cent decrease in the number of German tourists and a 5 per cent decrease in the number of French tourists. However, there has been an overall increase of approximately 213,000 tourists from the rest of Europe.

There is a huge potential for attracting more tourists here. Even though approximately 5.2 million tourists visited Ireland in 1997, it is only 1 per cent of the entire European market. I intend to make the selling of Ireland abroad a priority in the next few months. A mere 1 per cent of the European tourism market is not sufficient during an economic boom. We are trying to attract visitors from Germany and France from a Dublin base. While that should not be impossible with the necessary technology, I have indicated to Bord Fáilte that I would like a more hands-on approach to those markets and I asked it to consider placing people in Europe with a view to attracting more tourists from those countries.

I agree with the Deputy that Dublin is benefiting most from the increase in tourist numbers, but there has been an increase in revenue and numbers in all regions although some have not has fared as well as others. For example, there has been a 20 per cent increase in the north-west as opposed to an 85 per cent increase on the east coast. I have held discussions with representatives of Aer Lingus regarding access points and its response was that if there is a demand for Cork, Galway or Donegal they will meet it. Aer Lingus is a commercial company and will operate only where there is a demand.

The marketing of Ireland as a tourism destination has had positive results. Dublin is the most cosmopolitan city in Europe and has benefited from weekend breaks. I urge the regional tourism authorities, who have been given additional funding this year, to promote the regions as attractive destinations. There is no reason the weekend short-stay holidays, that have been a great success in Dublin, could not become a feature of other parts of the country.

What form of a hands-on approach should be taken to attract more tourists from the continent, in particular the French and Germans who are big spenders? I hope we can attract them to Shannon and Cork as well as to Dublin. I have had preliminary discussions with Bord Fáilte with a view to assisting it in bringing a political dimension to tourism promotion in the countries we are trying to target. Does the Minister agree with that line of attack?

Dr. McDaid: We should make every possible effort to attract tourists from the European market, particularly from the huge German and French markets. Of course there should be a political hands-on approach and Ministers adopt such an approach when they go abroad on European business. I cannot over emphasise the importance of marketing, particularly with the advent of an expected reduction in EU funding. That is why, in conjunction with the private sector, we are trying to ensure that funding is maintained and increased. While there is a political dimension to it there is nothing to compare with the private sector approach. I was approached recently by a person in the bed and breakfast sector in County Down who complained they were not getting adequate numbers of visitors because they happen to feature in a Bórd Fáilte brochure. They took the initiative, travelled to a certain part of Germany where they did their own marketing and as a result increased their business that year by 350 per cent. While we have to market at national level the private sector must play its part also. We have a tradition and a culture and it is popular to be Irish in the world today. We have much to sell and it is only a matter of providing the finance and the hands-on approach.

Mr. Rabbitte: What are the current projections for an increase in tourist traffic for 1998 over 1997? Is the Minister concerned about the possible adverse implications of the fragile industrial situation at the main access airport, having regard to the ongoing provocative actions of

Ryanair-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is moving away from the question.

Mr. Rabbitte: I thought the Minister was in agreement that we were not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are deviating from the question submitted by Deputy Allen.

Dr. McDaid: While projections for the UK are excellent, we expect an increase of a further 10 per cent on our 1997 record of almost three million, given that major sporting events - the Tour de France on the weekend of 12 July and the tall ships in mid-August - are taking place here. We have huge potential for increasing tourist numbers particularly from the UK. We expect a 7 per cent increase from the buoyant US market but the indications are that the European market will continue to be sluggish unless something is done about it. That is the reason I have asked for a hands-on approach, in other words that somebody in charge of the European market should be based in Europe to stimulate that huge market which has enormous potential.

As regards the situation at the airport I am disappointed the dispute arose, particularly as it involved tourism and the business area, but that is a matter outside my Department.

Mr. Allen: The Minister will be aware of the traffic growth figures for the past ten years. Of an increase of 8.5 million, 7 million went to Dublin, 0.9 million to Cork and 0.6 million to Shannon. Those figures speak for themselves. Will the Minister agree that marketing alone is not the answer? We need to review policy in relation to access to Ireland. If everybody is coming through Dublin, a large number will stay in the greater Dublin area and therefore there will be an imbalance of growth. There is need for a review of transport policy in relation to access. Is the Minister concerned that one of the major ferries has pulled out of the southern region which means people are even more dependent on coming through the east coast? Will the Minister review the question of access in conjunction with his colleague who has responsibility for communications?

Dr. McDaid: I agree the question of access is of enormous importance. Given our airports, this is the best way to attract people to Ireland. The whole question of access should be appraised. Dublin has a huge benefit because of its access facilities. Aer Lingus has done a tremendous job by providing extra flights to the US in recent months. Continental will be coming in the next few months. Extra charters from four European cities will go to various destinations during the summer. Delta will play its part.

A recent survey indicated that 90 per cent of visitors to Glasgow and Edinburgh eventually make their way to London. If visitors come on charter flights to Cork, Shannon and Galway it is possible they will find their way to Dublin. In my discussions with Aer Lingus it was pointed out that if there is a demand to get to the regions, it will have no hesitation in providing extra capacity. I look forward to 1998 when increased capacity will be provided by Delta, Aer Lingus, Continental and four chartered routes from Europe.

30. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation whether the Government has decided to place a limit on the expenses being allowed to witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [6243/98]

39. Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a financial limit has been placed on the legal expenses incurred by witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [7238/98]

40. Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a financial limit has been placed on the legal expenses incurred by witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [7241/98]

41. Mr. L. Burke asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a financial limit has been placed on the legal expenses incurred by witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [7239/98]

42. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a financial limit has been placed on the legal expenses incurred by witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [7138/98]

43. Mr. Ferris asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation if his attention has been drawn to the fact that no provisions have been put in place for legal fees for the senior counsels, junior counsels or solicitors or persons, who by virtue of their membership of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, will be required to co-operate fully with the independent inquiry into sexual abuse in swimming; his views on whether the absence of provision of legal fees or the ability to be similarly legally represented constitutes a denial of justice to Irish Amateur Swimming Association members and deprives the independent inquiry of necessary witnesses; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7268/98]

53. Mr. Sheehan asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the reason a financial limit has been placed on the legal expenses incurred by witnesses appearing before the inquiry into abuse in swimming. [7240/98]

Dr. McDaid: I propose to take Questions Nos. 30, 39 to 43, inclusive, and 53 together.

The Government appointed Dr. Roderick Murphy, SC, on 10 February to Chair an independent inquiry, currently underway, into the following matters relating to the incidence of child sexual abuse in swimming: the arrangements which the IASA, the Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs, had in place since 1975 for the detection and prevention of child sexual abuse; the procedures, including functional responsibility, which the IASA, the Leinster Branch and affiliated clubs had in place for securing compliance with these arrangements; the manner in which complaints in relation to sexual abuse made to the IASA, the Leinster Branch, affiliated clubs and a named school were dealt with over that period; the manner in which any complaints in relation to two named coaches reported to the IASA, their Leinster Branch, affiliated clubs and a named school were handled by them over that period; the arrangements which the IASA, their branches and affiliated clubs now have in place to detect and prevent child sexual abuse, including arrangements while complaints are being investigated, and sanctions; and the adequacy of arrangements now in place for the protection of children in swimming.

Participation in the inquiry is by way of written submission and-or interview, all of which are being dealt with in strict confidence. Given the private and factual nature of the inquiry and its procedures, it is not normal practice, I understand, in such circumstances for the State to offer assistance for legal representation for participants.

However, a strong wish was expressed by some victims that they be accompanied by their legal adviser when attending for interview because without such presence they would be reluctant to participate in the inquiry. Having considered the matter, the Government decided, as an exceptional measure, to offer assistance towards legal costs incurred by the victims, involved in incidents covered by the terms of reference, in arranging for the attendance of their legal advisers at interviews. Government set a maximum of £500 for the State's contribution towards such costs, having regard to the nature of the inquiry and of the role required of victims' legal advisers.

In relation to the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, IASA, Dr. Murphy has indicated that he has already received considerable co-operation from the association and its Leinster branch, including interviews with coaches and officials, written submissions and documentation in relation to its organisation in general and to its procedures for dealing with complaints in particular.

Dr. Murphy expects to complete his report by the end of March by which time he expects to have sufficient material available to him from submissions and interviews to address the matters raised in the terms of reference of the inquiry.

Mr. Allen: This issue does not involve big business or the serious problem of misappropriation of funds. It is the more sensitive and serious issue of child abuse. The Minister in his Scrooge-like and insensitive approach to the matter of legal representation is giving the wrong signals and the Government's decision is a deterrent to some people coming forward. In view of the other defects in the inquiry, will the Minister consider removing the cap on legal expenses so that everybody who wishes to come forward and give evidence is encouraged to do so and people are not deterred by the risk of incurring heavy legal expenses?

Dr. McDaid: The Government made its decision in the interests of the victims, the parents of victims and in the interests of children. The inquiry has been a tremendous success with regard to the number of people coming forward. On previous occasions, accusations were made that I was compelling people to come forward but the only people we sought to compel were those who wished to come forward in confidence.

With regard to the cap on the amount of money being made available for the victims' legal expenses, such a decision was not considered in the context of any other inquiry. It was never previously offered. The Government made this proposal because there are exceptional circumstances. It does not prevent people coming forward. Dr. Murphy indicated he would accept people coming forward whether they do so in a private capacity or are accompanied by their legal advisers. Some people prefer to be accompanied by their legal advisers.

In certain instances, this matter has been abused by certain people in the legal profession. There were advertisements encouraging people to come forward to what was virtually a seminar for advice. It was a self-marketing, profile generating exercise. Nobody need feel put out by the fact that a cap has been imposed on legal expenses. It is a generous offer and, to date, it has not prevented anybody coming forward to give their evidence.

Mr. Ferris: Some people, by virtue of their positions in the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, will be obliged or expected to give evidence. Does the Minister not agree that the cap is a disincentive to some of them, particularly because of their stated views on this subject and the evidence they have already given to the media? If they are to be facilitated and to ensure that Dr. Murphy is given the most extensive information possible, there should be no preclusion, whether it be legal fees or otherwise, on their coming forward, without fear of repercussions with regard to their evidence. Some of these people carried out individual internal inquiries in contravention of the code of ethics and they now realise it was the wrong thing to do. Nevertheless, they are expected to give that evidence to this confidential committee but if they are precluded from being properly represented it will be a disincentive.

Dr. McDaid: I am not sure that I understand the Deputy. Nobody has been precluded from coming forward by the cap on the fees. Everybody was invited to come forward and Dr. Murphy allowed people to come forward on their own initiative. However, in the case of the officials and coaches, he approached the people he considered necessary for submissions. He made direct approaches to certain people but it was left up to the victims and the parents of victims to come forward should they decide to do so. He did not feel he should intervene in their private decisions.

Mr. Rabbitte: The Minister said everybody was invited to come forward. Is he satisfied that no material witness will be precluded from coming forward as a result of the cap on legal fees? What is his best estimate of the likely costs to the Exchequer arising from the inquiry?

Dr. McDaid: The costs to the Exchequer are a matter for the Attorney General. I cannot answer the Deputy's question in that regard. I do not believe anybody should feel precluded from coming forward because of the cap on the legal fees.